# Possible basis for war crimes prosecutions released by Obama administration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043 "2012-04-07T00:04:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/61 "2012-04-07T19:06:03Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And why do you think that is? Don’t you think a refusal to prosecute people for war crimes creates an environment in which people are more likely to commit war crimes? Probably. Are you ready to go after Clinton as well as Bush? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/62 "2012-04-07T19:07:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Probably. Are you ready to go after Clinton as well as Bush? If he actually committed any. Do you have evidence for this? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/63 "2012-04-07T19:13:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If he actually committed any. Do you have evidence for this? Already given. Bombing Serbia w/o UNSC approval. That’s an act of aggressive war. But maybe that’s “just” a crime against peace instead of a war crime. Same general idea, though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/64 "2012-04-07T19:23:51Z")
I would start by pointing out that your notions of equivalence seem a mite shaky. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/65 "2012-04-07T19:27:28Z")
Taking a police actions to stop war (and succeeding, btw) = lying into an aggressive war (and failing, btw), huh? :dubious: Oh, wait - you once again had to find some way to say “The Democrats are the same as the Republicans, and thank Og I’m not one of those greasy, compromised _participants_”, and that’s what you could come up with this time. Got it. :rolleyes: You need a new schtick, **John**. This one is seriously stale. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/66 "2012-04-07T19:34:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I would start by pointing out that your notions of equivalence seem a mite shaky. I never said anything about equivalence. It needn’t be equivalent to be prosecutable. Starting a war of aggression is a [crime against peace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_peace). Is it not? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/67 "2012-04-07T19:35:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Already given. Bombing Serbia w/o UNSC approval. That’s an act of aggressive war. But maybe that’s “just” a crime against peace instead of a war crime. Same general idea, though. So you don’t have any war crimes that Clinton did? So you’re retracting that statement? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/68 "2012-04-07T19:39:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you don’t have any war crimes that Clinton did? > > So you’re retracting that statement? I said it might be “just” a crime against peace. Are you prepared to prosecute him for that? Or are crimes against peace off the table for some reason? ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/69 "2012-04-07T19:42:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I never said anything about equivalence. It needn’t be equivalent to be prosecutable. > > Starting a war of aggression is a [crime against peace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_peace). Is it not? Clinton did not start a war of aggression, the Serbs did, he stopped a war of aggression by using force and the result… War Crimes Trials for the aggressors. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/70 "2012-04-07T19:44:35Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > So you believe that we as a society haven’t improved in 200+ and 150 years ago? That’s exactly my point. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/71 "2012-04-07T19:49:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I said it might be “just” a crime against peace. Are you prepared to prosecute him for that? Or are crimes against peace off the table for some reason? Who is credibly calling it that? Every expert I’ve ever heard agrees that waterboarding is torture. Every person who’s had it done to them seems to agree. Where is the consensus for the Serbian attacks being a _crime against peace_? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/72 "2012-04-07T19:49:45Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Clinton did not start a war of aggression, the Serbs did, he stopped a war of aggression by using force and the result… War Crimes Trials for the aggressors. The Serbs did nothing to us, and were no threat to us. We interfered, without UNSC approval, in the internal affairs of a sovereign country. We bombed the shit out of them. It might have been for a good cause, but that does not make it in compliance with the UN Charter. It’s a direct violation. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/73 "2012-04-07T19:50:13Z")
According to legal experts, as of early 2008, 45 Serbs, 12 Croats and 4 Bosniaks were convicted of war crimes by the ICTY in connection with the Balkan wars of the 1990s. (from Wiki) This is how a war crimes tribunal works, as many of the people responsible as can be arrested and tried. You might note that no Americans appear on the list even though Americans killed lots of people in the conflict, they committed no crime because they were stopping Genocide. This has zero to do with torture ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/74 "2012-04-07T19:55:13Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Clinton did not start a war of aggression, the Serbs did, he stopped a war of aggression by using force and the result… War Crimes Trials for the aggressors. It wasn’t a war of aggression, strictly speaking, but a purely internal affair. Technically, it was a Yugoslav civil war. That said, I believe NATO action was wholly justified. [QUOTE=AgeQuodAegis] What makes you think that the beneficial treatment of prisoners of war is one of our “founding values”? Because POWs were not treated well in the US’s early wars. [/QUOTE] Your citations show that our enemies didn’t treat US/Union prisoners well, not that we didn’t. However, that’s beside the point. The Bush Administration went out of its way to point out that WOT detainees were not prisoners of war, but “enemy combatants”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/75 "2012-04-07T19:58:50Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > It’s only patriotic to (verbally) attack the president if he’s Muslim. I’m not talking right and wrong. I’m talking the reality of how things play. The Obama administration could safely attack Bush and Cheney if there was a point to it. But a general attack on the Bush administration would be a bad idea frpm a political standpoint. You start going after cabinet officials and generals and agency heads - much less agents and servicemen - and people are going to start seeing this as Goliath attacking David. Regardless of the specific allegations, a lot of people are going to be thinking, _“All these guys were doing was following orders from the people above them. And now they’ve got the entire government - the same government that gave them those orders in the first place - coming down on them and wanting to punish these guys for the government’s mistakes. Sure, what they did ten tears ago was wrong. But what’s being done to them now is wrong too.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/76 "2012-04-07T19:59:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The Serbs did nothing to us, and were no threat to us. We interfered, without UNSC approval, in the internal affairs of a sovereign country. We bombed the shit out of them. It might have been for a good cause, but that does not make it in compliance with the UN Charter. It’s a direct violation. No its not, it is not a crime to stop Genocide in fact a reasonable case can be made that NOT stopping Genocide is a crime ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/77 "2012-04-07T20:05:29Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > No its not, it is not a crime to stop Genocide in fact a reasonable case can be made that NOT stopping Genocide is a crime Can you cite that part of the UN Charter that supports that view? The only exception to the use of force against another sovereign state w/o UNSC approval is if a country is in imminent threat of attack. Is it your contention that we were in imminent threat of attack by Serbia? > [@](#): > > United Nations Charter > The first article of the United Nations Charter says: > The Purposes of the United Nations are: > > To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace; > > To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace; > > The interdiction of aggressive war was confirmed and broadened by the United Nations’ Charter, which states in article 2, paragraph 4 that > All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations. > > [edit]Article 33 > The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice. > The Security Council shall, when it deems necessary, call upon the parties to settle their dispute by such means. > > [edit]Article 39 > The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security. > > [edit]Article 51 > Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/78 "2012-04-07T20:07:35Z")
[quote=“Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright, post:74, topic:618043”] It wasn’t a war of aggression, strictly speaking, but a purely internal affair. Technically, it was a Yugoslav civil war. That said, I believe NATO action was wholly justified. Technically true, but I would say that the US did not start a war of aggression, it moved with support of the International community and NATO, the UNSC wasn’t going to move on this because Russia is an ally of Serbia, but Russia didn’t try to stop us either, that’s politics. The idea that war, if not approved by the UNSC, is criminal, is dubious at best. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/79 "2012-04-07T20:16:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you cite that part of the UN Charter that supports that view? The only exception to the use of force against another sovereign state w/o UNSC approval is if a country is in imminent threat of attack. Is it your contention that we were in imminent threat of attack by Serbia? This directly contradicts your assertion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime\_against\_peace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_peace) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043/80 "2012-04-07T20:20:29Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > This directly contradicts your assertion > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime\_against\_peace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_peace) Can you quote that part that you think contradicts my assertion? > [@](#): > > The idea that war, if not approved by the UNSC, is criminal, is dubious at best. It’s a direct reading of the UN Charter, which I quoted above. The exception is self-defense. There was no self-defense involved when we bombed Serbia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-basis-for-war-crimes-prosecutions-released-by-obama-administration/618043.md?page=5)