Possible debate? Gimme reasons why GW`s SS plan will/won't work.

Err, no. That was just the figure that I had a cite for. Do you have a cite showing that Social Security will be a negligable chunk of GDP? Or are you just trying to distract from the facts?

Never mind. Here’s a better cite showing Social Security as a percent of GDP. Social Security will rise from 4.35% of GDP in 2003, to 6.85% of GDP in 2100. Over that same period, revenues will fall from 4.97% of GDP to 4.72%.

So what Hentor’s bluster boils down to is that when you combine Social Security and Medicare, Social Security is a little less than half the problem. I’m sure we all feel a lot better now.

Sweet, sweet irony. Immediately after accusing me of “muddying the waters” by including Medicare in one of my figures, you try to change the subject to Medicare.

AQA: First, I don’t think that anyone is entitled to receive benefits in line with the current trajectories. Social Security is not a right; it’s a public benefit. The government can cut them at any time.

I don’t disagree with that; there’s nothing carved in stone that says wage-indexing is the only fair or tolerable way to calculate Social Security benefits. It’s important to pay retirees decent benefits, but we shouldn’t consider ourselves committed for all time to any particular level of benefits.

And I do appreciate the concern about future costs. However, I simply don’t see why it makes sense to commit ourselves to a benefits indexing scheme that will cut benefits so drastically—even more drastically than is required to meet the projected shortfall—and will continue to reduce them thereafter (compared to what the currently-scheduled benefits would have been).

Even if we absolutely need to cut benefits by one-quarter in order to keep SS solvent, that’s not a reason for cutting them by one-third (and eventually one-half, and so on). I would think it makes a lot more sense to combine smaller benefit cuts with other measures, like raising the payroll tax cap on wages. Switching wholesale to a price-indexing scheme, as Bush proposes, just seems like overkill whose only real purpose is to whittle away at the program and eventually make it useless. (Yes, my biases are showing, but the Administration has been quite frank about wanting to move away from governmental safety nets.)

AQA: * […] when you combine Social Security and Medicare, Social Security is a little less than half the problem. *

Actually, the CBO link you originally gave with the combined figures also has the figures broken out for SS and Medicare separately, and as far as I can tell, it’s more skewed than that. In 2075, SS revenues are projected to be 4.7% of GDP while outlays will be 7.0%. The comparable Medicare figures are 2.5% and 8.4%.

So the percentage-point shortfall for SS is only 2.3 compared to Medicare’s 5.9. By my reckoning, Medicare’s got more than twice as big a problem as Social Security when it comes to projected trajectories.

AQA: *The current system would indeed pay out about 25-30% of benefits in the year 2042; but Bush’s program would only pay out about 37% of benefits on the current trajectory. *

Either this is a typo or I’m losing my mind. Aren’t you inadvertently using the complement of the figures you meant to refer to here? That is, the current system in 2042 would cut benefits by 25-30% (paying out 70-75%), while the Bush plan would pay out about 63% of currently scheduled benefits, or a37% cut?

Once again, you’re absolutely right. Maybe I should just stop typing. It appears that Hentor’s right; I am muddying the waters. :smack:

And after re-reading my post in response to Hentor, it appears that I’ve added some snark where none was deserved. I apologize if my message comes across as snotty, Hentor. I promise I was smiling when I typed it, and sometimes it’s hard to make that come through in typed messages.

SteveG1: Bah. At this point, none of it makes sense to me anymore.

Please don’t give up. It’s important for people to understand these issues as fully as possible: the eventual choice of strategy to deal with SS is pretty much guaranteed to have a very profound impact on your financial future.

I confess to a certain amount of cynical suspicion that the Administration may want people just to give up on the details as too confusing. They hope that by smearing over the math and just hammering away on goodthink terminology like “personal account”, “ownership society”, “your own money”, “increased rate of return” and so forth, they’ll get the public to climb aboard their bandwagon without bothering to read the fine print.

However, that is an ignoble, unworthy slur on the integrity of America’s fine public servants, and I should not give it credence. Pardon me while I bend over for twenty strokes of the Patriot Paddle, and rise with a renewed faith in the Administration’s sincerity. From now on, I proceed on the assumption that the government does really want us fully to understand the issues here, and therefore it’s my duty to try to help explain them. (And it’s your duty to comprehend them, so lissen up. ;))

The core issues are really pretty simple:

1) Social Security payroll taxes are collected from current workers to pay benefits for current retirees (the “pay-as-you-go” system).

2) At present, SS takes in from taxes more than it pays out in benefits; this has been going on for a while now and will go on for a while longer, so the surplus contributions are stored in the designated Social Security trust fund.

3) That trust fund, though sizeable, is small compared to the total federal debt, so there’s some question about whether the money in it is “really there”. Other such assets, like US government bonds owned by foreign governments, are considered to be “really there”—i.e., we consider them valid IOU’s from the USA and are committed to paying them—so it seems reasonable to conclude that the SS trust fund is valid too. However, the IOU’s in the SS trust fund do have to be paid back from other government revenues eventually.

4) “Eventually” begins when SS starts having to pay out in benefits more than it takes in from payroll taxes, which will be sometime within the next couple decades. (This is due to the fact that the big generation of baby boomers will stop being workers and start being retirees; the baby-boom generation is moving through the American demographic “like a pig through a python”, in one economist’s words. As more workers become retirees, the ratio of tax revenues to benefit payments decreases.)

5) Even if the SS trust fund IOU’s are paid back in full from other government revenues, that won’t get us all the way over the baby-boom hump. At some point—currently predicted to occur somewhere in the 2040’s—the trust fund will be exhausted and SS will still be paying out in benefits more than it takes in from payroll taxes.

6) Therefore, to make ends meet for the Social Security system, something will have to give. Either:

a) SS benefits will have to be cut to match the available income from payroll taxes;
b) SS payroll taxes will have to be raised to match the required outlays on benefits;
c) other government revenues will have to be used to make up the shortfall; or
d) some combination of the above. (“Cutting benefits” includes targeted measures like means-testing benefits, while “raising payroll taxes” includes targeted measures like lifting the payroll tax cap. There’s a whole menu of possible options.)

7) The proposed Bush plan advocates making ends meet solely by means of option (6a): cutting benefits. This would be achieved by changing the economic formula by which the benefits are calculated: in econo-speak, switching from “wage-indexing” benefits to “price-indexing” them. In other words, the amount of benefits would rise along with inflation rather than with wages, which would mean much slower increase in benefits.

8) The Bush plan would actually result in cutting benefits much more than is required to make ends meet for SS. Over subsequent decades, the amount of benefits would get smaller and smaller compared to what they would be under the current system.

9) The Bush plan also proposes allowing workers to divert some payroll tax into “private accounts” or “personal accounts”—sort of like multiple, individual Social Security trust funds. This would make the SS system no longer completely “pay-as-you-go”; instead, it would be part “pay-as-you-go” and part “save-for-yourself”.

**10) ** These individual accounts in the Bush plan are actually designed to be revenue-neutral for SS in the long run. That is, they will not save any money or reduce any expenses for SS. It’s the benefit-cutting that accomplishes that.

11) Under the Bush plan, the idea is that the personal accounts would help retirees offset the effect of the benefit cuts by generating returns greater than 3%. Anything you put into your personal account, plus 3% interest, goes to the government when you retire, in the form of additional cuts in your benefits. (That’s how they keep the plan revenue-neutral. No matter how much interest you actually got on your personal account investment—even if you ended up losing part of your investment—the government still has to cut your benefits by the same amount of total-contribution-plus-3%, in order to keep Social Security from losing money.)

12) Anything left over in your personal account, if there is anything left over, you would get to keep. Most people would probably have something left over, although as AQA noted above, it’s unlikely that these leftovers would make up for the original reduction in benefits from the switch to price-indexing.

13) Although the private accounts are supposed to be revenue-neutral in the long run, they would cost a fair bit of money (“transition costs”) in the near term. That’s because if you’re letting today’s workers divert some of their payroll taxes into save-for-yourself accounts, you have to find some other money to meet the current pay-as-you-go obligations to today’s retirees. The Bush plan would simply borrow that amount—i.e., add it to the national debt. The transition costs are estimated to be anywhere from about $600 billion to $2 trillion over the next ten years alone, and more after that.

14) Finally, under the proposed Bush plan, none of these proposed changes would affect anybody born before 1950. Everybody scheduled to retire in 2017 or before would get the currently-scheduled SS benefits: no “price-indexed” benefit cuts, no personal accounts, no change whatsoever.

There, that wasn’t so bad, was it? A mere 14 points; study one every day and you’ll have the whole scheme down in two weeks. :slight_smile: Seriously, I think that’s a reasonably fair assessment, although of course it leaves out a lot of details.

IIRC, under SS your spouse would receive benefits from your SS even if you aren’t retired when you die, as would any children under 18.

Like Tater, I am in the FERS program. I think it is a taste of what the new and improved system will be. Instead of moving ahead, we are moving backwards. There is less money in our accounts than there was during the “Clinton Dark Ages”. There was an investigation into the FERS for incompetence. The software used to run the whole thing turned out to be junk. The cost to fund the investigations and the “software fix” was levied on us, the shareholders. It gives us gubmint workers a lot of good feelings (not).

Snippets from today’s local newspaper:

L.A. Daily News 10 Feb headline
Trouble in River City
Bush playing ‘Music Man’ role with Social Security con
This editorial calls this a con game in which every citizen loses.

L.A. Daily News 10 Feb headline
President’s Social Security overhaul plan hits snag
“The Bush administration declined Wednesday to offer an estimate for how much it would cost long term….”
“Treasury Secretary John Snow repeatedly ducked pointed questions about costs Wednesday in testimony before the House Budget Committee…”
“White House aides have acknowledged that the new accounts would do nothing to fix Social Security’s long-term funding gap…”
“…the government would have to borrow money to replace the revenues that are diverted…”
Since “they” obviously can’t explain the thing or justify it, then why is it such a wonderful idea? I thought maybe I was stupid. Now it looks like nobody really understands it, including Bush himself. AND, the spend/borrow cycle will still continue anyway.

It was that bad, but now the (very dim) lightbulb is just starting to light up. We will have a 4 percent / $1000 per year cap or upper limit (not enough to ever retire on). We will pay some sort of fee/tax for the “privilege”. There will be no guarantee of having anything, if the market tanks or an ENRON game is played on us. Big Gubmint will still be able to steal I mean borrow any time they see fit.

It is a combination of quick change artist, shell game, and Ponzi scheme, all rolled up into one.
So Perfessor, do I pass the course? :smiley:

Well, if it is described as Kimitsu lays out then I am not totally on board with the plan. Not on board at all actually. I would like to think that the eventual plan that unfolds will have a definite positive effect on future generations, not a possible positive effect.

So, perfessor, do I pass the course? Probably not. I think it too soon to grade the individual. I shall wait to pass final judgement whence I hear the final tally and the numbers offered up by the Bush admin along with the counter arguements from the other side.

No apology needed - I shouldn’t have presumed that you were intentionally muddying the waters. I apologize myself for having done so. I should not generalize from other discussions to these boards and this forum as much as I do.