# Possible marketplace forum **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [March 1, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825 "2010-03-01T04:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/61 "2010-03-02T03:33:06Z")
I might or might not visit the forum, I do know I have nothing I want to sell at this time. I do have a couple thoughts I want to raise about this proposed forum: 1. How about extending the time for a poster to edit their post in this forum only? Is this a possibility for just one forum? 2. The ability for guests to post, honestly, I think if this is to be successful, then you should limit paying member to being able to post a new thread, but a guest should be able to reply. However, if this is done, make sure there is a rule about hijacking a thread in the forum. 3. Is it possible to allow members the ability to close their own treads in just that one forum? If not, it might be too much trouble to be worth it. 4. I am slightly concerned about spill over from the marketplace into the rest of the board. Would you allow price checks in IMHO, debates about a product in GD (especially if started by someone selling and linking to their thread). GQ questions about a product being sold, or Pit threads about a seller? What about CS or GR threads about a product (movie or game) being sold, specially when posted by a person selling the same product? 5. Y’all just started allowing people to make their own custom titles, what if someone wants their title to be a link to their thread selling something, or putting something like “trusted seller”, or something along those lines? Well, those are the major things I can think of right now. I’m not against the forum itself, I honestly think it is a decent idea. I have no interest in it personally at this time, but if it helps the SDMB community, that would be a good thing. I just want to make sure that everything is thought out before hand, so there are no major complications after someone looks for and exploits some sort of loop hole. ETA: Oh, and what about those current “worthy causes” that are posted in MPSIMS? Would you no longer allow them, and move the threads to this “marketplace”? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/62 "2010-03-02T04:42:37Z")
To be honest, I think a product review forum would be a better idea. I think that it would be less repulsive to the membership at large and to my guess, might look more attractive to advertisers. I don’t know the internet ad business\* much at all, someone feel free to educate me. In line with that, a variation on what I mentioned in some long ago thread that they should make a “Book Club” child thread of Cafe society. Have them vote on a book to do each month. Easily targeted ads there too. \*eta: or any ad business for that mater. I couldn’t even get in to “Mad Men”. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/63 "2010-03-02T13:54:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I haven’t read the thread yet [A quick link for you.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=554278) ---
**Author:** ![Lestrade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Lestrade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lestrade)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/64 "2010-03-02T14:23:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Another problem might be charging for stickies. Depending on price, I can foresee lots and lots of stickies with the result that stickie postings might eventually consume the first several pages of the forum. I suspect that the stickies would be for a limited time only, which would help prevent such a build-up. In the same vein, I expect that the duration of stickie-ness would be a day or a week, depending on how popular it turns out to be. I think the new forum is a good idea, but I really have no dog in this fight. This just seems like a common sense solution to the problem you raised. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/65 "2010-03-02T16:41:08Z")
> [@Lestrade](#): > > I suspect that the stickies would be for a limited time only, which would help prevent such a build-up. In the same vein, I expect that the duration of stickie-ness would be a day or a week, depending on how popular it turns out to be. > > I think the new forum is a good idea, but I really have no dog in this fight. This just seems like a common sense solution to the problem you raised. As I implied earlier, a more common sense idea would be to not sell sticky threads at all. Even with your ideas, they could clutter things up quick and take attention away from official stickies. Paying extra to post images would be a better way to make money off it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/66 "2010-03-02T16:50:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Paying extra to post images would be a better way to make money off it. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/67 "2010-03-02T21:47:45Z")
You could try an experiment in pure capitalism, and let the price of stickies fluctuate with demand. Decide on what percentage of the first page will be paid stickies, and then price accordingly as the sticky section ebbs and flows. Does vBulletin support a sticky tier system, so the forum rules and announcements can be given a higher priority and always appear above the member stickies? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/68 "2010-03-03T01:18:29Z")
> [@Ponderoid](#): > > You could try an experiment in pure capitalism, and let the price of stickies fluctuate with demand. Decide on what percentage of the first page will be paid stickies, and then price accordingly as the sticky section ebbs and flows. > > Does vBulletin support a sticky tier system, so the forum rules and announcements can be given a higher priority and always appear above the member stickies? I have to be blunt: the whole idea is kind of stupid. If you want to sell a half page of static ads, a ton of stickies in a message board format is simply not the way to do it. Every other place where you buy an ad, it’s right there, stickies you have to click and look inside. And unless it’s a recent update, there’s no priority system for the stickies, as I’ve noticed mods bumping stickies here to maintain the preferred order. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/69 "2010-03-03T05:05:42Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > I might or might not visit the forum, I do know I have nothing I want to sell at this time. I do have a couple thoughts I want to raise about this proposed forum: > > 1. How about extending the time for a poster to edit their post in this forum only? Is this a possibility for just one forum? Dunno. Not sure why you would need more time to edit a post in this forum. > [@](#): > > 1. The ability for guests to post, honestly, I think if this is to be successful, then you should limit paying member to being able to post a new thread, but a guest should be able to reply. However, if this is done, make sure there is a rule about hijacking a thread in the forum. Good point. The idea, as you surmise, was to eliminate commercial hijacks by guests, but we don’t want to make it so hard to post that there’s no traffic. I think we’ll do it this way. > [@](#): > > 1. Is it possible to allow members the ability to close their own treads in just that one forum? I think this came up earlier. I believe the software allows us to do this; if so, we will. > [@](#): > > 1. I am slightly concerned about spill over from the marketplace into the rest of the board. Would you allow price checks in IMHO, debates about a product in GD (especially if started by someone selling and linking to their thread). GQ questions about a product being sold, or Pit threads about a seller? What about CS or GR threads about a product (movie or game) being sold, specially when posted by a person selling the same product? We’ll have to work out the policy over time. I can see an argument for steering commercial discussions, product reviews, etc., to the Marketplace forum. > [@](#): > > 1. Y’all just started allowing people to make their own custom titles, what if someone wants their title to be a link to their thread selling something, or putting something like “trusted seller”, or something along those lines? I don’t think it’s possible to put links in titles. At this point I don’t have an opinion on people giving themselves a title like “trusted seller”; I’d be concerned if newcomers put unwarranted faith in such a title. > [@](#): > > ETA: Oh, and what about those current “worthy causes” that are posted in MPSIMS? Would you no longer allow them, and move the threads to this “marketplace”? I think we’d judge these on a case-by-case basis. Commercial ventures we’d likely steer to Marketplace; the remainder would probably stay where they were. > [@CarnalK](#): > > As I implied earlier, a more common sense idea would be to not sell sticky threads at all. Even with your ideas, they could clutter things up quick and take attention away from official stickies. Paying extra to post images would be a better way to make money off it. You’re right, paid stickies might not be practical. We don’t currently plan to charge for images, but that’s subject to review. > [@Sapo](#): > > This is why I probably like better my idea of a forum where people talk about products instead of trying to sell them. It is a lot more in line with the current tone of the board. No reason product reviews couldn’t go in this forum; I think it’d make a lot of sense. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Sorry for the dreaded consecutive post, but have you run this by CL legal? I see more potential for litigation here than just with a regular message board. Could raise a number of issues…a guy thinks he’s paying for relatively cheap advertising, then gets banned for something in another forum, now he claims breach of contract…or he’s selling a crappy product, but claims to be willing to litigate unless you delete negative reviews, etc. Even if the lawsuit is entirely frivolous, it can be expensive to defend. > > Also, are you prepared for an onslaught of ads for boner pills, escort services, and porn sites? $15 a year for access to a forum they can spam with that crap is going to be highly attractive, I think. More so if they can include pictures. I ran the Marketplace idea past our marketing guy and he’ll have to give the OK before we do it. I agree there are risks. Sleazy ads are a potential problem. I doubt Viagra marketers will pay $15 for the privilege of advertising, but we’ll see. My inclination is to refuse any posts about adult services, hookups wanted, etc.; apart from the impact on the tone of the board, way too much could go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/70 "2010-03-03T05:22:39Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Doesn’t this run into a giant issue with anonymity? If you’re buying a good from someone then you’re going to need to know a lot of personal information about them, unless they’ve already set up corporate identities. But those are easy to find out about, since they’re public records. Vendors would have to part with their anonymity. It’s either that or ask _permission_ for a marketplace sock account, which would kind of defeat the purpose, since they would lose the advantage of being known. I suspect that permission would not be granted anyway. Smart vendors would include a link to an off-site location or email, so that buyers could approach them without revealing their SDMB username. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/71 "2010-03-03T10:02:28Z")
Might I suggest that the proposed forum be subdivided into: A subforum for people explicitly selling or touting some product or service One for reviews of products/services people have already bought (or should this just go in MPSIMS?) One for requests for recommendations on a product/service (or should this go in IMHO?) ? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/72 "2010-03-03T13:39:41Z")
What will you do when someone gets scammed? Sent money, no merchandise forwarded, or wrong merchandise sent? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/73 "2010-03-03T14:02:55Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > Dunno. Not sure why you would need more time to edit a post in this forum. Because if I post a list of 100 DVD titles I want to sell, it’d be a hell of a lot easier to continually edit the OP as I sell discs off piecemeal than adding a list of 93 titles, then 87 titles, then 86 titles, then 83 titles, etc. Sounds like you might need a bit more time to think this through, Ed. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/74 "2010-03-03T14:11:50Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > What will you do when someone gets scammed? Sent money, no merchandise forwarded, or wrong merchandise sent? I wouldn’t expect any intervention at all - I’d imagine TPTB will disclaim responsibility for this from the start - after all, it could already happen - I say I make widgets in my spare time, you PM me to enquire about buying one, I take your money and run. What would they do about that if it happened today? Nothing much, I suspect (although it’s more likely to occur if there is a marketplace forum). However, unlike other marketplaces, the scammer and the victim here may continue in membership - so it will be important to work out whether and to what extent either of them will be allowed to discuss/accuse/defend (and obviously TPTB can’t just side with the person claiming to have been scammed, because the claim could be false). It could be that the first such incident marks the end of the experiment… ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/75 "2010-03-03T14:56:55Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Because if I post a list of 100 DVD titles I want to sell, it’d be a hell of a lot easier to continually edit the OP as I sell discs off piecemeal than adding a list of 93 titles, then 87 titles, then 86 titles, then 83 titles, etc. Sounds like you might need a bit more time to think this through, Ed. Ah, you mean unlimited time for an OP to edit his OP. Judging from a quick look in the back room, we can’t fine-tune things to that degree. However, here’s what I think we can do: 1. Allow OPs to close threads they started. Makes sense, we’ll probably do this. 2. Permit only subscribers to start threads, but allow anyone to post. Also makes sense; we’ll deal with spam the same way as now. 3. Allow subscribers to edit their own posts. I don’t see a way to limit this to an OP’s OP, but that probably doesn’t matter; we’re not expecting acrimonious debates where somebody is going to want to go back and revise an earlier argument. I can imagine problems arising over disputed commercial claims, but what the hell, I think we can start off allowing editing. > [@Mangetout](#): > > I wouldn’t expect any intervention at all - I’d imagine TPTB will disclaim responsibility for this from the start - after all, it could already happen - I say I make widgets in my spare time, you PM me to enquire about buying one, I take your money and run. What would they do about that if it happened today? Nothing much, I suspect (although it’s more likely to occur if there is a marketplace forum). > > However, unlike other marketplaces, the scammer and the victim here may continue in membership - so it will be important to work out whether and to what extent either of them will be allowed to discuss/accuse/defend (and obviously TPTB can’t just side with the person claiming to have been scammed, because the claim could be false). > > It could be that the first such incident marks the end of the experiment… This is definitely a danger. We don’t want to get embroiled in commercial disputes. The eBays of the world have figured out ways to deal with such problems, but commerce is their core business, whereas for us it’d be a sideline. The software isn’t set up to allow buyers and sellers to rate one another. I’d hope problems would be few and that we could deal with them informally, but that remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/76 "2010-03-03T16:20:19Z")
If you are really set on a classified type thing, you should poke around the vB forums, since obviously, you aren’t the first guy to think about adding one to a forum. [iTrader Version for vBulletin 3](http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=230543) [Photopost Classifieds](http://www.photopost.com/class/) So maybe you could set up one of those and have a consumers review forum attached to it somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/77 "2010-03-03T16:26:36Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Are you talking about registered business only? - or could, say, someone who knits custom sweaters advertise their service as an individual? What do you mean by “registered business”? A legal corporation? And why _wouldn’t_ you allow someone who knits custom sweaters advertise their service? (Personally, I received a _very_ nice pair of a warm fuzzy socks from a Doper last year, don’t knock our craftspeople) > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Wouldn’t Craigslist be the obvious model (and competition)? And that’s the question. Craigslist is already there, and quite successful. Why would I want to advertise here instead of there? What’s the competitive advantage? If you’re in business you’d want to advertise as many places as you could afford to do so - it’s not “instead of”, it’s “in addition to”. Also, as I am selling my writing at present, being able to advertise to the people here who have read some of my writing and like my style could be mutually beneficial to all. Broadcasting on general marketplaces - not so much, as I don’t at present have a large general following. > [@aruvqan](#): > > I think maybe we could allow each subscriber to start one thread about their goods and services [like an author posing a link to their personal webspace/etsy page/merchant site, a short description of what type of books they write, not a general listing of everything they have.] Make is short and sweet, and the titles businesslike and listing the type of good/service offered. I think we do need to limit how many threads a subscriber can open, otherwise we’ll have a mess. As it is possible for someone to have more than one business venture we might not want to limit it to just one, but definitely there needs to be a limit. It might be better to handle this via moderation than by software. As an example - someone might offer used books _and_ web design services. Or perhaps editing services _and_ their watercolors they paint as a hobby. It would make sense to separate such divergent endeavors, both for the sellers and the buyers.. On the other hand, editing services and web design might make more sense combined into one thread. > [@sandra\_nz](#): > > The only place I could see it working would be under the Chicago section of the board, with trade limited to a geographical region around Chicago. Why? Don’t you buy things from outside your geographic region? Some services sold via the internet don’t even require you to be on the same continent for instant delivery, much less locally. > [@CarnalK](#): > > I think you are overestimated the power of sigs though, imho. The width of visibility is limited to once per thread you participate in and people ignoring or turning them off completely. I think you are underestimating the “power of sigs”. Currently, that is my main form of advertising and while it’s not perfect it certainly is having a positive effect. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I think there’s some interesting networking potential in that. Would things like unemployed Dopers looking for work in their local area, or people with a litter of kittens to give away also be welcome? I’d like to see things of this sort, too. “Looking for work” would be of great benefit to unemployed Dopers, and there are _already_ threads that have made suggestions to the unemployed as to where to seek work I see no harm in give-aways. It would also be helpful for, say, an annual seed exchange for gardening Dopers. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Doesn’t this run into a giant issue with anonymity? If you’re buying a good from someone then you’re going to need to know a lot of personal information about them, unless they’ve already set up corporate identities. But those are easy to find out about, since they’re public records. > > So if you sell something as Cecil Adams, but the buyer is directed to a PayPal account for EDZotti at [ChicagoReader.com](http://ChicagoReader.com) and the return address on the package is Ed Zotti, Ivory Tower, Chicago, IL 60666, then the game is up. > > Admittedly, it’s up for just those who do the purchase. But just the thought makes me queasy. No one is forced to buy or sell anything here. If you don’t want to give up your anonymity don’t participate. If you do want to buy or sell, well, sorry, that’s how it’s done. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Perhaps more importantly - questions about cars/computers/books and so make frequent appearances on the Dope. That’s because we can all be fairly confident that product recommendations are being made by neutral, well-informed parties. What if I’m selling my macbook in the Marketplace, and my response to a “what PC should I buy” thread is “buy a macbook!” What stops Dopers with a vested interested in a topic from doing that _now?_ Someone who sells Macs now can easily say “buy a Mac!” in any computer thread. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/78 "2010-03-03T16:33:40Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What stops Dopers with a vested interested in a topic from doing that _now?_ Someone who sells Macs now can easily say “buy a Mac!” in any computer thread. Really? If I have a MacBook on craigslist, and make a post on the SDMB about how awesome MacBooks are and why you should buy one, I increase my chances of selling that MacBook by about 0.000000001%. If I have a MacBook listed for sale on the SDMB and make a post on the SDMB about how awesome MacBooks are and why you should buy one, those chances are increased quite a bit more, because _I’m talking directly to the market I’m selling to_. What sells more Depends - a commercial airing during MTV’s Jersey Shore, or a commercial airing during Matlock? Or more analogous - what sells more Depends - an ad display at Toys R Us or at Walgreen’s? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/79 "2010-03-03T16:40:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think you are underestimating the “power of sigs”. Currently, that is my main form of advertising and while it’s not perfect it certainly is having a positive effect. Are you talking about some other forums where you can have big sigs and use them every post? Because you are clearly not talking about your sig here. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825/80 "2010-03-03T16:56:36Z")
_adds one vote in favor_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-marketplace-forum/530825.md?page=5)