# Possible new hominid species unearthed in China **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 16, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119 "2012-05-16T17:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/1 "2012-05-16T17:51:51Z")
Scientists working in China believe they may have discovered a species of extinct hominid previously unknown to science. The fossils, found in Maludong Cave and Longlin Cave in southwest China, have been dated to between 11,500-14,500 years ago. They are, for now, being called the Red Deer Cave People. In contrast, the last Neanderthal skeletons are dated to 30,000 years ago, although they had interbred with Cro-Magnons and left descendants across Eurasia. The Red Deer Cave People are distinguished by their archaic features. Their skulls show they had jutting jaws, heavy brow ridges, and flat faces. Their brains were average sized compared to those of their human neighbors. For more on the archaeological studies of the Red Deer Cave People, see: [Human Remains from the Pleistocene-Holocene Transition of Southwest China Suggest a Complex Evolutionary History for East Asians](http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0031918) Alternative theories exist to explain the Red Deer Cave People. Some scientists have suggested they are not a separate subspecies, but rather humans who’d developed archaic traits through genetic drift. Another theory, proposed by Chris Stringer of the Natural History Museum, London, is that they represent a population heavily interbred with the [Denisovans](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593393&highlight=denisovans). The Denisovans, _Denisova hominins_, is a hominid group recently discovered to have lived from Siberia to Southeast Asia as late as 40,000 years ago. Like Neanderthals, they interbred with humans. _Homo floresiensis_, another hominid which stood a bit over 3 feet tall, lived on the islands of Indonesia as late as 12,000 years ago. No evidence has been found to suggest they interbred with humans. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/2 "2012-05-18T01:03:12Z")
“[O]ur ongoing attempts to extract DNA from a specimen from Maludong have so far proven unsuccessful owing to a lack of recoverable genetic material.” But maybe they’ll find something. Took a while to get decent data from Neandertals, and IIRC the Denisovan DNA was extracted from a tooth. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/3 "2012-05-18T01:09:16Z")
Fascinating! It’s a great time to be alive. Or dead. ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/4 "2012-05-18T03:28:29Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > Another theory, proposed by Chris Stringer of the Natural History Museum, London, is that they represent a population heavily interbred with the [Denisovans](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593393&highlight=denisovans). > > The Denisovans, _Denisova hominins_, is a hominid group recently discovered to have lived from Siberia to Southeast Asia as late as 40,000 years ago. Like Neanderthals, they interbred with humans. _Homo floresiensis_, another hominid which stood a bit over 3 feet tall, lived on the islands of Indonesia as late as 12,000 years ago. No evidence has been found to suggest they interbred with humans. Considering that no Denisovan skull has ever been found, who’s to say the Red Deer Cave People weren’t full-blooded Denisovans? Btw, Denisovans were members of the genus _Homo_, just like us. “_Denisova hominins_” isn’t their genus and species. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/5 "2012-05-20T04:22:18Z")
> [@](#): > > “…they **may** have discovered a species of extinct hominid previously unknown…” > > “Some scientists have **suggested** they are not a separate subspecies, but rather humans who’d developed archaic traits through genetic drift.” > > “Another **theory** …is that they represent a population heavily interbred with the Denisovans.” > [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > Considering that no Denisovan skull has ever been found, who’s to say the Red Deer Cave People weren’t full-blooded Denisovans? I wondered why that wasn’t in the OP, too. It’s archaeological speculation like that what cause unrest.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/6 "2012-05-20T04:32:07Z")
Who are these scientists? When I was teaching in China, my university had a rather disturbing government funded “anthropology symposium” based on the very discredited idea that Chinese people are a unique species and are not descended via Africa. Basically, it was a rigged debate, and my students were left with the distinct impression that we did not share a common ancestor. They told me that if Europeans and Chinese had children, they would have “subtle genetic defects,” and that we were much like lions and tigers- capable of interbreeding, but not well. I only know what I saw, but I’m fairly sure the Chinese government is not above using anthropology to achieve political ends. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/7 "2012-05-20T12:05:30Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > Considering that no Denisovan skull has ever been found, who’s to say the Red Deer Cave People weren’t full-blooded Denisovans? Is there Red Deer Cave DNA to compare to Denisovan? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/8 "2012-05-20T12:25:41Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Who are these scientists? > > When I was teaching in China, my university had a rather disturbing government funded “anthropology symposium” based on the very discredited idea that Chinese people are a unique species and are not descended via Africa. Basically, it was a rigged debate, and my students were left with the distinct impression that we did not share a common ancestor. They told me that if Europeans and Chinese had children, they would have “subtle genetic defects,” and that we were much like lions and tigers- capable of interbreeding, but not well. > > I only know what I saw, but I’m fairly sure the Chinese government is not above using anthropology to achieve political ends. Perhaps we should wait for more info before breaking out the tinfoil for an origami session no? ETA…link goes to the abstract of the paper. It lists everyone who contributed and their institutions as well. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/9 "2012-05-20T12:46:56Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Who are these scientists? > > When I was teaching in China, my university had a rather disturbing government funded “anthropology symposium” based on the very discredited idea that Chinese people are a unique species and are not descended via Africa. Basically, it was a rigged debate, and my students were left with the distinct impression that we did not share a common ancestor. They told me that if Europeans and Chinese had children, they would have “subtle genetic defects,” and that we were much like lions and tigers- capable of interbreeding, but not well. > > I only know what I saw, but I’m fairly sure the Chinese government is not above using anthropology to achieve political ends. There was some issue with the destruction of mummies in the Takla Mahan region because they were caucasian until enough leaked out that it was starting to shed a bad light on Chinese practices. The claim that China independently invented wheels and weaving, and some other assorted things is thrashed by the presence of caucasians with wheeled carts, domesticated horses and advanced textiles 2000 years prior to the accepted age range of the Silk Road trading practices. [I have a fantastic book on the textiles, there is a really lovely plaid on one of the mummies that was woven as a horse blanket.] ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/10 "2012-05-20T12:46:59Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I only know what I saw, but I’m fairly sure the Chinese government is not above using anthropology to achieve political ends. For domestic consumption maybe, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of the gov’t interfering with stuff published in international scientific journals. They’re pretty invested in upping China’s reputation for science research, and publishing something about the Chinese as a seperate species would just make the researchers and their associates laughing stocks amongst their peers. But in anycase, about half the names on the paper in the OP are from Australian institutions. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/11 "2012-05-20T17:26:56Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > They told me that if Europeans and Chinese had children, they would have “subtle genetic defects,” and that we were much like lions and tigers- capable of interbreeding, but not well. I beg to differ with them. I know a woman who is half Chinese and half European and who has all of the cliched features of a Eurasian beauty except the evil part. She, in turn, has bred 😉 with a Mexican American man a couple of times with no “subtle genetic defects” that I’ve heard about. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/12 "2012-05-20T18:20:36Z")
Kids who are 1/4 Asian, 1/4 European, and 1/2 Mexican (read “MesoAmerican”)? I expect they’ll be taking over the world in about twenty years. And I, too, wish to know why they’re claiming the Red Deer people are only tangentially related or interbred with Denisovians. It’s in approximately the right geographical area, considering Denisovian remains were found in Siberia, and living \Homo sapiens\ in Papua New Guinea retain some Denisovian DNA. Still, whether they’re full Denisovians, distant cousins, or never-even-met-'em hominins, it’s still hella cool. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/13 "2012-05-21T05:02:24Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > And I, too, wish to know why they’re claiming the Red Deer people are only tangentially related or interbred with Denisovians. It’s in approximately the right geographical area, considering Denisovian remains were found in Siberia, and living \Homo sapiens\ in Papua New Guinea retain some Denisovian DNA. It might have something to do with the separation in time (40,000 years ago vs. 12-14,000 years ago) but still I don’t get the wild speculation. It seems unscientific and it can be easily misinterpreted by the public. > [@](#): > > Still, whether they’re full Denisovians, distant cousins, or never-even-met-'em hominins, it’s still hella cool. That’s something that I think everyone can agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/14 "2012-05-21T05:10:09Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > They told me that if Europeans and Chinese had children, they would have “subtle genetic defects,” and that we were much like lions and tigers- capable of interbreeding, but not well. If “smart as a whip” and “good-looking” are genetic defects, then my niece and nephews prove their point nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-new-hominid-species-unearthed-in-china/622119/15 "2012-05-21T05:17:27Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > If “smart as a whip” and “good-looking” are genetic defects, then my niece and nephews prove their point nicely. I believe that I’m 1/8 Chinese and 7/8 European and I hope I’m living up to my ancestry. (I say “I believe” because there’s no record of who my Chinese great grandfather was – my great grandmother did not marry him.)