# Possible to be a feminist without believing in rape culture/patriarchy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369 "2012-08-13T12:06:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/41 "2012-08-13T19:29:54Z")
Believing that women historically have had no power at all is as damaging to female empowerment as believing that there is not and never has been any impediment put in their way. I’ve never liked the forms of feminist theory that see pure raw male power in everything, as if women had never made anything happen, had never defined any portion of who they were in the face of all this and so on. On the other hand, I tend to view patriarchy deniers as being as out of touch with reality as holocaust deniers. Patriarchy is our past and defined a great many of our ways of understanding things, including our mores and moral values and beliefs and assumptions about many thinghs. We’re coming out of it but that is something that is still in process. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/42 "2012-08-13T19:48:36Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > And the problem I have with Melissa McEwan’s description of rape culture is that it includes everything and the kitchen sink. I read that months ago and started to wonder just what _isn’t_ Rape Culture? Well, I do not agree with 100% of what is written on that list, but enough that I feel ok thinking such a concept exists. But, I am uncomfortable with calling it a “rape culture” myself because I feel it shuts out discussion right away. Before knowing that concept I was filing a good chunk of the behaviors described under plain old sexism and/or a culture of violence. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/43 "2012-08-13T19:53:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > At some point in continum range from a bikini to a burka, there’s probably something less sexually provocative than the bikins but less restricting than a burka, do you think? > > Like how about the costumes that the men’s beach volleyball teams wear? I’m all for equality. Put the men in speedos. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/44 "2012-08-13T19:58:11Z")
Little of use to contribute, but I just want to say to the OP: I hear ya’. It’s not even _just_ feminism. It seems like almost all “progressive” social views (feminism, racial equality, LGBT rights, etc) have been rhetorically overtaken by people that just want to paint the world as one big vitriolic oppressor. Everything is rape, everything is racist, and the greatest good act is insulting, shaming, and demeaning people with, oh my, a different opinion. “Rape culture” has always been a term that’s bothered me, although I don’t disagree with many of the premises the concept is attached to. But there’s something unconstructive about it. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/45 "2012-08-13T20:08:45Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Do you get to make that determination? Or should the woman who is clothing themselves make that determination and expect to be treated with respect regardless of the determination she makes? Of course. But she can’t avoid people looking, and can’t avoid people finding it sexually provocative. Just like I couldn’t avoid comments about my body parts when I wore a mankini. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/46 "2012-08-13T20:44:26Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Yup. Rape culture is disagreeing that there is a rape culture. First rule of rape culture is you don’t talk about rape culture. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/47 "2012-08-13T21:06:39Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Do you get to make that determination? Or should the woman who is clothing themselves make that determination and expect to be treated with respect regardless of the determination she makes? Actually as it happens I disagree with this. Nobody gets to decide what other people should think of them, and this is no exception. But that’s really **Flyer** ’s argument, in this thread. I’m merely responding to Billfish’s implicit claim that these are only (or at least primarily) worn for practical purposes, and his false bikini/burka dichotomy. > [@billfish678](#): > > Perhaps, but honestly I’d suspect the bikini is about a unrestrictive as you’ll get this side of being nude. And given this a cute throat competition, pretty much wearing what is the least restrictive (or at least what you THINK is) is what many/most/all players are going to wear. > > And if they are wearing bikinis, I’d suspect it is because they want the least restrictive thing they can wear, not because they wanna show of their body. You’re ignoring (part of) my post. If these clothing are worn for practical purposes, then you’d see the male players wearing similarly unrestrictive clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/48 "2012-08-13T21:28:46Z")
They could compete wearing nothing but a sheen of olive oil, like the original Olympians. But then all that exposed φαλλος would only encouage rape culture. To answer the OP on how to be a feminist without buying into it’s more extreme beliefs: do what a lot of feminist women do. Give birth to a baby boy. You’ll still see how women get shafted, but you’ll also see all the bullshit he has to endure to grow up, with precious little handed to him on a patriarchial platter. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/49 "2012-08-13T21:33:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re ignoring (part of) my post. > > If these clothing are worn for practical purposes, then you’d see the male players wearing similarly unrestrictive clothing. Perhaps. Could be most men don’t want to be caught dead in a speedo and women don’t care as much about sorta showing the “Misses” a bit more. Could be that giving the “boys” some swinging room is better than being tightly restricted in a “bananna hammock”. Could be that keeping the upper torso warm is better for men and keeping the “ladies” locked down a bit is better for the women. Either the women of the sport want this or a bunch of old men are telling them this is what they need to wear. Which one is it? (Honestly I have no idea about this one). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/50 "2012-08-13T22:26:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Either the women of the sport want this or a bunch of old men are telling them this is what they need to wear. Which one is it? (Honestly I have no idea about this one). I am not familiar with the inner dynamics of this sport. But I’m pretty sure the decision is top down, because I recall reading about some issue with them loosening the rules a bit in this regard (possibly for Muslim women). But the question is the motivation for the decision, not who is making it. For reasons given, it seems obvious to me that the intention is to attract attention to the women’s bodies. Putting the two together, I would guess that whoever runs the sport knows that they will attract a lot more attention to it if they dress the women this way, and make a lot more money for everyone involved, and since they have a fig leaf (:D) of a reason to do it (i.e. that it’s beach attire) they go for it. But regardless of these details, the point is that it does not seem to be done for practical reasons, as above. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/51 "2012-08-13T22:43:28Z")
I believe it’s possible to be a feminist without ever publicly acknowledging rape culture. There are enough non-sexual areas to focus on that you could go an entire lifetime as a feminist without discussing it. I \*don’t \*think it’s possible to be a feminist while disclaiming the existence of rape culture, though. Disclaiming the existence of rape culture is \*so \*anti-feminist as to make you effectively a non-feminist if you \*don’t \*believe it. I’m not being judgmental, it’s just a fact. It’s not dissimilar from how you can’t keep kosher while eating cheeseburgers, or you can’t be a Christian if you don’t believe in Christ, or you can’t be in favor of gay-rights if you don’t believe in same-sex marriage. It’s a basic contradiction. ## You can \*say \*you’re a feminist while disclaiming rape culture if you like, just like anyone can \*say \*they’re kosher while eating a cheeseburger, &etc. But you’d be a hypocrite, because it’s a fundamental untruth (even if it’s an untruth based on ignorance, rather than malice). I’m not really sure how you can argue against the existence of the patriarchy throughout history. How does that work? Do you know about a bunch of queens and female ruling classes oppressing men that I never learned about? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/52 "2012-08-13T23:04:49Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I believe it’s possible to be a feminist without ever publicly acknowledging rape culture. There are enough non-sexual areas to focus on that you could go an entire lifetime as a feminist without discussing it. I \*don’t \*think it’s possible to be a feminist while disclaiming the existence of rape culture, though. Disclaiming the existence of rape culture is \*so \*anti-feminist as to make you effectively a non-feminist if you \*don’t \*believe it. That’s stupid. You’re saying it’s impossible to be a feminist unless you’re a believer in a single, flawed theory of what causes rape. It’s like saying you’re not opposed to car theft unless you blame _GTA_. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/53 "2012-08-13T23:14:30Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That’s stupid. You’re saying it’s impossible to be a feminist unless you’re a believer in a single, flawed theory of what causes rape. It’s like saying you’re not opposed to car theft unless you blame _GTA_. You don’t blame video games for crimes? Why do you support the theft culture and murder culture we live in? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/54 "2012-08-13T23:32:04Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I believe in a “rape culture” of sorts, but not the one a stereotypical feminist believes in. They consider “rape culture” to be an environment that allows misogynistic thoughts to flourish - I consider it to be an environment where rapists are actively aided. I’m not worried about _Tentacle Bento_, I’m worried about the US military diagnosing rape victims with preexisting psychological disorders to drum them out. This. That’s a “rape culture”. There’s actual rape, and an actual effort by the subculture in question to shield the rapists. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > Do you get to make that determination? Or should the woman who is clothing themselves make that determination and expect to be treated with respect regardless of the determination she makes? Being attracted to a woman isn’t disrespect. And what makes you think that having men attracted to her isn’t the reaction that a young, healthy, athletic woman isn’t going for in the first place? And even if it _isn’t_ what she wanted, she doesn’t have the right to demand that men only think approved thoughts. Men are _allowed_ to find a woman sexy. > [@billfish678](#): > > Perhaps, but honestly I’d suspect the bikini is about a unrestrictive as you’ll get this side of being nude. Actually, I’d think that shorts are less restrictive than a bikini, due to being looser. Bikinis are pretty much designed for the purpose of exposing the maximum amount of skin. > [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I’m not really sure how you can argue against the existence of the patriarchy throughout history. How does that work? Do you know about a bunch of queens and female ruling classes oppressing men that I never learned about? The real historical patriarchy, or the feminist conspiracy theory version? Because historically, the people officially in charge may have been men, but _most_ men were quite thoroughly oppressed and treated as expendable resources. Some conscripted peasant sent off to die in some war so the king can expand his holdings isn’t the member of some ruling class, he’s just another victim. And just because they generally weren’t the official rulers didn’t automatically make women powerless, it just made their power less direct. How can we tell after so much time whether or not the _real_ reason some king kicked off an invasion a thousand years ago wasn’t because his queen suggested it too him? Power isn’t just a matter of who has the official title. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/55 "2012-08-13T23:43:09Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Disclaiming the existence of rape culture is \*so \*anti-feminist as to make you effectively a non-feminist if you \*don’t \*believe it. I’m not being judgmental, it’s just a fact. It’s not dissimilar from how you can’t keep Can I trot this out next time someone is all self-satisfied about posting “feminism is simply the belief that women are people?” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/56 "2012-08-13T23:48:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually, I’d think that shorts are less restrictive than a bikini, due to being looser. Bikinis are pretty much designed for the purpose of exposing the maximum amount of skin. First, I don’t think you’ve really thought this through. Second, unless you are actually a woman that’s played volleyball alot your WAG is just as useless as mine. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/57 "2012-08-13T23:58:08Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Second, unless you are actually a woman that’s played volleyball alot your WAG is just as useless as mine. Thus the term “I’d guess”. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/58 "2012-08-14T00:14:06Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I \*don’t \*think it’s possible to be a feminist while disclaiming the existence of rape culture, though. Disclaiming the existence of rape culture is \*so \*anti-feminist as to make you effectively a non-feminist if you \*don’t \*believe it. I’m not being judgmental, it’s just a fact. This is the problem, in a nutshell. You’ve decided what the facts are, and are now saying that anybody with a different view of the data, a different approach to the phenomena, a different rhetoric of the problem, or _even make a mistake_ are categorically excluded. The moment you start shunning people because they approach the problem differently (but still with intellectual honesty and a determination to fit the reality), feminism ceases to be an intellectual discipline or philosophy and has simply become a club. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/59 "2012-08-14T00:21:42Z")
Feminism has long been inferior to secular humanism for a host of reasons. Rachellelogram’s posting clarifies many of the reasons why. Certain strains of feminism are not even a club so much as faith-based victim culture where one earns status by supporting the orthodoxy and its views and hating/opposing the right targets. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/60 "2012-08-14T04:07:54Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > You can \*say \*you’re a feminist while disclaiming rape culture if you like, just like anyone can \*say \*they’re kosher while eating a cheeseburger, &etc. But you’d be a hypocrite, because it’s a fundamental untruth (even if it’s an untruth based on ignorance, rather than malice). Have you thought about the implications of this statement? You’ve effectively limited the men and women who can be feminist to those who went to college and took a lot of gender or women’s studies courses. Before 2011 the terms rape culture were pretty much limited to the academic world. No doubt there were plenty of women, even college educated ones, who considered themselves feminist and had no idea about rape culture theory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369.md?page=4)