# Possible to be a feminist without believing in rape culture/patriarchy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369 "2012-08-13T12:06:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/81 "2012-08-14T19:55:14Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > All masturbatory pedantic bullshit aside, these are 2 really basic tenets of feminism. I think you know that, or else why start this thread? A self-proclaimed feminist (not necessarily you) who doesn’t believe patriarchy is still negatively affecting our society and says rape culture is a collective figment of the imagination is not an ally worth having. Call it a club, call it exclusionary, call it whatever the fuck you want. But please, don’t call yourself feminist \*if \*you believe those things. So, it’s an exclusionary club. The only footing for your argument is if somebody lies about _what actually happens._ It’s only dissmissive of the real suffering of women if somebody is arguing that what happens _doesn’t_. It’s not merely acceptible, it’s _important_ for alternative sociological models and concepts to be used to explain data. It’s possible that “rape culture” is the best-fit for what’s happening. You can absolutely argue and support that. And you can do your best to disprove alternative views. But you’re not allowed to simply tell somebody that they’re not allowed into a conversation because they have a different view, a different model, or a different way to understand the same information _unless they lie_. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/82 "2012-08-14T19:59:34Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Thank you for clarifying that, **Rachellelogram**. I will no longer describe myself or think of myself as being a “feminist” in any way, and will begin looking for another descriptor for my attitudes towards gender equality. > > I apologize to all True Feminists for any offence I made have comitted through my casual misuse of the term over the past forty years in my mistaken belief that it was a quasi-political label and not a body of philosophical teachings. What’s with all the martyrdom, jesus aitch christ? It’s like I called you a racist or something. Call yourself what you want, it’s truly no skin off my proboscis. But I don’t consider people who advocate against the basic tenets of feminism to be feminists any more than I consider someone who eats meat to be a vegetarian. Your hurt feelings because a feminist won’t call you a feminist don’t matter to this feminist in the slightest. Feminist feminist feminist feminist, it’s not even a word any more! Look. Words have meanings, okay? And a person who states, “There is no rape culture in the US,” or, “Patriarchy doesn’t influence current gender relations whatsoever,” _while calling themselves a feminist_, is (to me) hypocritical on this issue. It doesn’t mean we can’t still have a beer or work in the same office, it just means we probably shouldn’t discuss feminism with each other. I can live with that; can you? If nothing else, it’s clear that there doesn’t appear to be a universal consensus on what constitutes a feminist. This is _my_ belief, you don’t have to accept it. I don’t hate you, I don’t dislike you, I really don’t even know you. I just don’t think you’re a feminist if you believe the aforementioned statements. It’s not the end of the world. > [@billfish678](#): > > And right there is a perfect example of the extremist clap trap bull malarky the OP is complaining about. If this makes me an extremist, I’ll accept that label. /exits thread stage right ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/83 "2012-08-14T20:02:53Z")
Tumblr & Facebook–the intellectual wellsprings of the post-modern age! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/84 "2012-08-14T20:10:40Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > What’s with all the martyrdom, jesus aitch christ? If you insult folks and tell them that they can’t be part of a movement for gender equality because they don’t cleave to orthodoxy, expect a non-zero percentage to respond with less than joy. > [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I don’t consider people who advocate against the basic tenets of feminism to be feminists Of course, “rape culture” (which doesn’t exist) or “the patriarchy” (which is a Conspiracy Theory) are not basic tenets of Feminism. The basic tenets of Feminism are that women should have equal rights and equal social status and that individual women should be treated as individuals rather than fungible units of “femininity”. When you find that you’ve made up a nonsense set of “basic tenets” that just so happen to dovetail with your personal preference for sociological hypotheses, it’s a pretty good clue that you’re no longer at all firmly grounded. > [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Look. Words have meanings, okay? And a person who states, “There is no rape culture in the US,” or, “Patriarchy doesn’t influence current gender relations whatsoever,” _while calling themselves a feminist_, is (to me) hypocritical on this issue. Amusingly you start with the claim that words have meanings, then go on to redefine “Feminism” then pretend that not agreeing with your idiosyncratic definition is “hypocritical”. Your argument has gotten away from you. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/85 "2012-08-14T20:17:55Z")
I’m trying to remember. Who is the poster here who makes (made?) money basically running an internet porn site? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/86 "2012-08-14T20:24:09Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I’m trying to remember. Who is the poster here who makes (made?) money basically running an internet porn site? Mike South. Rachel, if you’re still around: How can the concept of rape culture be a basic tenet of feminism if the concept itself was barely known about until a few years ago? The concept of rape culture is a basic tenet of feminism even though feminism has existed for 99% of its history without it? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/87 "2012-08-14T20:26:33Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Mike South. Not the one I am thinking of. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/88 "2012-08-14T20:27:59Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Not the one I am thinking of. The woman that runs Abb(e)ywinters? I think she went by abby. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/89 "2012-08-14T20:57:52Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > What’s with all the martyrdom, jesus aitch christ? It’s like I called you a racist or something. Call yourself what you want, it’s truly no skin off my proboscis. But I don’t consider people who advocate against the basic tenets of feminism to be feminists any more than I consider someone who eats meat to be a vegetarian. Your hurt feelings because a feminist won’t call you a feminist don’t matter to this feminist in the slightest. Feminist feminist feminist feminist, it’s not even a word any more! > > . . . How you define words really doesn’t impact my life one way or another. I have just been going on these past few decades, treating my Wife as an equal partner in our home and finances, and raising our daughters to be independent minded, self-sufficient people. For some reason I thought that was advocating “feminism” in some form, but I guess it was just me was just being all patriarchal and shit. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/90 "2012-08-14T21:05:31Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > If nothing else, it’s clear that there doesn’t appear to be a universal consensus on what constitutes a feminist. This is _my_ belief, you don’t have to accept it. I don’t hate you, I don’t dislike you, I really don’t even know you. I just don’t think you’re a feminist if you believe the aforementioned statements. It’s not the end of the world. And the good thing about this, is that _precisely because there is no universal consensus_ (even within the feminist spectrum\*), then whether \*\*Rachellelogram \*\* does or doesn’t think someone else is a feminist has scant bearing whatsoever on whether that other person can call her/himself a feminist or can be accepted as a feminist or welcomed to the discourse on equal footing by feminists other than her. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/91 "2012-08-14T21:15:52Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > For some reason I thought that was advocating “feminism” in some form, but I guess it was just me was just being all patriarchal and shit. Which reminds me of the worst kind of radical “feminist”. The ones that still, when push comes to shove, expect the man the do all the “manly” stuff AND at the same time hate the men for doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/92 "2012-08-14T21:17:30Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > And yet the social status of Mosuo women is a lot more equitable in comparison to women even in societies like our own. Fantastic. They’re still not a matriarchal society. So, please, can you name a single matriarchal society? Yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/93 "2012-08-14T21:20:37Z")
Saying that you can’t be a feminist if you don’t believe in the patriarchy, or rape culture, is a bona fide No True Scotsman if there ever was one. All that’s required to be a feminist is to actively support equal rights, pay, etc for women. Your views on the hows and whys of the problems women face is immaterial, as are your ideas on how to fix it. Now, you may not be an “x wave” or “y school” feminist, but you’re still a feminist. I see this kind of talk all the time, like [this article](http://lawsonry.com/2011/07/look-kitten-i-am-too-a-feminist-fauxminism-and-men/), which while it has some good points, uses the point “HE CONTINUES TO PARTAKE IN MEDIA OR ACTIVITIES THAT OBJECTIFY/DEGRADE WOMEN.” (copy pasted, caps are theirs) This sounds great on the surface, and I agree it’s kind of annoying when a guy’s computer background is Megan Fox in various states of undress. While the article doesn’t go this far, some of its supporters I’ve talked with used statements about how watching porn isn’t feminist. Nonono, never mind all those feminist schools that say porn is empowering, or “hey, women enjoy sex too!” No, anybody who watches or supports porn is necessarily not a feminist, and is a fake one. Because they disagree with them. There are many schools of thought, even among feminists. Claiming that the other side of the coin “isn’t feminism” because they don’t agree with you on the how’s or why’s is just plain arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/94 "2012-08-14T21:29:57Z")
I just butchered the English language with my apostrophes because for some reason they looked correct. Apologies, Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/95 "2012-08-14T21:48:25Z")
Women don’t judge… they _glow_. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/96 "2012-08-14T22:53:54Z")
I will admit that I’m a little fuzzy on what rape culture is, but I do believe that there are environments like fraternities and militaries that turn a blind eye to sex crimes and passively or actively encourage them. I don’t buy that the existence of these subcultures extend to the entire society. I don’t think there’s a top-down acceptance of rape, and I think that claiming the certain subcultures are indicative of the whole weakens your arguments. Although I do think there’s something very unhealthy about how the general society overlooks prison rape as being no big deal. A few weeks ago a friend posted on Facebook something like (paraphrased) “We teach our daughters not to drink, not to wear tight clothing, not to walk home alone. We should be teaching our sons not to rape.” To me, this is bullshit in at least two ways. One: The fact is that there are bad people out there. Teaching our kids to protect themselves doesn’t mean we agree with what those bad people do. I don’t see a difference between teaching women to be careful about rape and teaching anyone to be careful in other ways. We teach our children to lock their car doors, but that doesn’t mean that we accept “stereo theft culture” as a society. Two: We teach boys not to rape _all the time_. The “No means no” campaign was widespread and incredibly successful. For me, this started in sex ed in 4th grade, when we talked about consensual sex, and about how to make sure your partner was ok with things. I was specifically told many times to get verbal confirmation at each level of physical contact. Now we tell kids that it’s not just “no” that means no, it’s _anything other than “Yes, bring it on” that means no_. Hell, in college, I actually had a girl tell me “I’m in your bed; we don’t need to sign a treaty.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/97 "2012-08-14T23:22:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I didn’t think there was anything particularly controversial about the concepts of rape culture or patriarchy. Depends on how it is applied. If rape culture means all men are responsible for rape, even if they don’t actually commit rape… And there are people out there who think of it that way. I’ve seen it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/98 "2012-08-14T23:26:35Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Two: We teach boys not to rape _all the time_. Exactly! > [@](#): > > Hell, in college, I actually had a girl tell me “I’m in your bed; we don’t need to sign a treaty.” The treaty protects you as much as her. You might want to sign it and require her to sign it too. And have it notarized. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/99 "2012-08-14T23:28:44Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I can see this both ways. I mean, yes, objectively men interrupt women more. So I can see saying that men should really try not to interrupt women and it is culturally ingrained sexism. As I understand it, men interrupt _everyone_ more than women (in our culture); it’s not aimed at women and therefore isn’t sexist. It’s a conversational style difference, not sexism. Now, if men get all offended when women start interrupting people just like them, then _that’s_ sexism. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/100 "2012-08-14T23:29:20Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > What’s with all the martyrdom, jesus aitch christ? It’s like I called you a racist or something. Call yourself what you want, it’s truly no skin off my proboscis. But I don’t consider people who advocate against the basic tenets of feminism to be feminists any more than I consider someone who eats meat to be a vegetarian. Your hurt feelings because a feminist won’t call you a feminist don’t matter to this feminist in the slightest. It’s a little off-putting, to say the least, for a man to declare (after centuries of women fighting for men to say it) that he adopts the role and label of believing in human rights for women - only to have women get mad at them for it. Feminism in its current incarnation has succeeded in purifying itself, and driving lots of women and men away. When a man says “I’m a feminist” the better response is to engage him in a conversation about it, not tell him he can’t be, or that he can only be one if he checks off some beliefs. These are general reflections based on conversations I’ve had elsewhere - I’m not commenting specifically on what you or anyone else has said in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369.md?page=6)