# Possible to be a feminist without believing in rape culture/patriarchy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369 "2012-08-13T12:06:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/101 "2012-08-14T23:31:44Z")
How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Answer: One, and it’s _not funny._ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/102 "2012-08-14T23:57:45Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Answer: Three. One to screw in the lightbulb, one to complain about the violation of the socket, and one to secretly wish she was the socket. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/103 "2012-08-15T00:13:48Z")
I guess no true Feminist puts sugar on her misandr-o-meal. I’m not ready to abandon the term Feminist, and roll it into the overall “Humanist,” because there is much left to be done in that specific area. And I won’t cede the terrain to the spoiler radicals. A few years ago I posted the following formula for justifying bigotry: 1. I am a superior form of human being not by any individual achievement, but by being born into my gender/ethnicity/location/class, etc. 2. The only thing that’s thwarted me is that other insidious group. Their oppression of me is proof of their inferiority: it shows how they always resort to blatant injustice. I hope I don’t have an area of my self-identity that resists this fallacy, but I can’t think of any group that’s immune to it. Maybe Quakers. Anyway, “Rape Culture” does have a nice ring to it, almost as good as “Blood Libel.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/104 "2012-08-15T00:18:04Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Anyway, “Rape Culture” does have a nice ring to it, almost as good as “Blood Libel.” A “rape culture” sounds like something a biologist grows in a Petri dish to me, actually. Probably something that crawls out of the dish and invades neighboring dishes. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/105 "2012-08-15T01:29:17Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > It apparently is possible to take rape culture theory to a patriarchal conclusion and blame all men for rape (going back to the biological or evolutionary argument again), but an illogical conclusion in and of itself does not invalidate the theory if it can be shown that the conclusion is the result of misunderstanding or misapplying the theory. Good point. Often when it is said someone “does not believe/accept” X theory or social concept, what it means is s/he does not accept X theory/concept \*as either that person or the other party in the discourse \*defines or applies it, _and they may be both inadequately defining or applying it._ Slippery slopes, “logical extremes”, bad analogies, assuming facts not in evidence, all those can contaminate the discourse, as can dogmatism by which the persons misunderstanding or misapplying refuse to reasess their position. We start debating something identified with the same words that means one thing in A’s head and another in B’s head, and end up fighting each other’s broad caricatures when we could have just as well converged on a sound line of inquiry. Is there patriarchy? Yes. Are there signs and elements of rape culture afoot? Yes. Does this therefore prove THE\* Rape Culture™\* or THE _Patriarchy™_ as defined by a particular person or group beyond a shadow of a doubt? Oh, THAT, that has to be tested, studied, analyzed, debated – as is, perhaps more critically, _what then to do about it_. Even if the society embraces that The Patriarchy and The Rape Culture are all they are said to be, that does not exactly generate a self-evident timetable and flowchart of concrete steps to reach the goal of eliminating them. Do we walk away from the old ways only to go right ahead and unconditionally and unquestioningly take up another set of Articles Of Faith to be followed? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/106 "2012-08-15T01:43:34Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > What’s with all the martyrdom, jesus aitch christ? It’s like I called you a racist or something. Call yourself what you want, it’s truly no skin off my proboscis. But I don’t consider people who advocate against the basic tenets of feminism to be feminists any more than I consider someone who eats meat to be a vegetarian. No, what you are saying is that someone who doesn’t think people who eat meat are murderers can’t be a vegan. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/107 "2012-08-15T07:34:40Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Fantastic. They’re still not a matriarchal society. So, please, can you name a single matriarchal society? Yes or no. Did you read the rest of that paragraph, or are you cherrypicking to find what you think is the weakest point in the argument? The Mosuo are a matriarchal society, because there is more power in society than just political. There is social and moral power, and Mosuo women have that in spades. **JRDelirious** made a good point about definitions upthread; if you define power in society as being solely political power, then you’re never going to accept my definition of a matriarchal society (which considers social and moral power in addition to political). Fair enough, although your definition of what determines whether a society is patriarchal or matriarchal (i.e. political power alone) is overly limited and not useful for further discussion of the subject. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/108 "2012-08-15T13:18:54Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > If nothing else, it’s clear that there doesn’t appear to be a universal consensus on what constitutes a feminist. Thank you. That’s what needed to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/109 "2012-08-15T13:37:25Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > I will admit that I’m a little fuzzy on what rape culture is… It is a rhetorical device used by some feminists to put men on the defensive, and to marginalize the voices of those women who disagree on topics unrelated to gender equality. We are starting to reach the point where women can make their own decisions on what to think without being told. This upsets those who want to tell women what to think. Some of those who get upset are misogynist men, and some are feminist women. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/110 "2012-08-15T13:50:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It is a rhetorical device used by some feminists to put men on the defensive, and to marginalize the voices of those women who disagree on topics unrelated to gender equality. No, it is the idea that some men (it really should be called rape SUBculture to be fair) enable rape by approving of it, blaming the victim, etc. It is sometimes misused as a rhetorical device to attack all men or blame them all for rape, etc., yes. And that’s unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/111 "2012-08-15T14:16:06Z")
Strident 57 year old feminist checking in. 😛 I wonder how many here have read “How to be a Woman” by Caitlin Moran. She does a decent job of defining what feminism means and one of the definitions she offers is that it pretty much means is treated just like one of the guys. Would you compliment a male co-worker on wearing a new shirt? No problem. Would you leer at him and say “Wow-that shirt makes your biceps look hot?” Probably not. So don’t do it to a female co-worker. We live in a world where women are still being blamed for rape. “She dressed like a slut. She was asking for it. She shouldn’t have been drinking with them. She shouldn’t have been there at that time. Boys will be boys” and blah blah blah. We exist in a world where one gender controls the vast majority of both political and financial power. Those are the facts. So sure, I believe that certain subcultures foster rape and sure, I believe that a patriarchal system still dominates. The problem with modern civilized first world sexism is that it’s insidious. It’s easy to deal with someone that tells you that are less intelligent or weaker because you have a twat. You can just point and laugh because you know you’re dealing with an antediluvian idiot. It’s much harder when someone implies that the only reason why you are arguing an issue is because you’re either suffering from PMS or menopausal. That, of course, immediately invalidates everything you have to say because youre just a silly hormonal female. Men are not my enemy and never have been but I find that today, even with my most well intentioned and liberal brothers, I run into sexist attitudes fairly frequently. An example: I watched an older man arguing with a much younger woman at the Occupy encampment in Austin last year. As the discussion became more passionate, he began looming over her and talking much louder. I’m sure he didn’t realize that he was using physical intimidation as a tactic but he was. I’ve seen it before. It works well especially with younger women. Not so much when you’ve learned to say firmly “Step back and lower your voice right now please.” Another example: I was part of a Camp Casey gathering back in 2006. We were camping in a field in Texas and in order to get to the Port-A-Potties you had to walk past a lot of tents late a night. A couple of brain dead male idiots thought it appropriate to call out semi-salacious remarks as you stumbled across the grass at 4 AM. A group of us complained to camp security and were initially brushed off. The attitude was “Hey, they’re really good guys just being stupid and maybe y’all are oversensitive.” It took a little while to convince the head of security that no, no one should have to put up with being catcalled particularly in the dark. I didn’t give a shit that these were basically ‘good’ guys. I did care that women were being made to uncomfortable just because they needed to take a wee. Yet another example: I’m a farmer. Part of what I do 4 times a week is eviscerate chickens. Blood and guts don’t phase me at all. Periodically, a couple of men I know shoot feral hogs on my property and slaughter them here. One of them never fails to warn me that I probably shouldn’t be part of the processing because I might get squeamish at the sight of gore. Hello, I probably spend more time with internal organs then a heart surgeon. Just because I have breasts and a vagina doesn’t mean I’m too delicate to deal with pig guts. I realize that these aren’t ‘big’ issues like female circumcision or rape but they wear you down. They erode you. They’re subtle and invasive and I’m really tired of having to deal with them-especially with men ( and women) that should really know better. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/112 "2012-08-15T14:28:14Z")
Great post, jlzania. Some comments and questions: > [@jlzania](#): > > We exist in a world where one gender controls the vast majority of both political and financial power. Those are the facts. So sure, I believe that certain subcultures foster rape and sure, I believe that a patriarchal system still dominates. What should an individual man do to change that? > [@](#): > > It’s much harder when someone implies that the only reason why you are arguing an issue is because you’re either suffering from PMS or menopausal. That, of course, immediately invalidates everything you have to say because youre just a silly hormonal female. But that means women can’t turn around and use PMS as an excuse for their behavior when it’s convenient for them. Heck, that’s where men learned about it. > [@](#): > > An example: I watched an older man arguing with a much younger woman at the Occupy encampment in Austin last year. As the discussion became more passionate, he began looming over her and talking much louder. I’m sure he didn’t realize that he was using physical intimidation as a tactic but he was. I’ve seen it before. It works well especially with younger women. Not so much when you’ve learned to say firmly “Step back and lower your voice right now please.” You don’t think men use physical intimidation against other men? Or that women use it against other women sometimes too? Certainly it’s much more common among male-female situations, but it’s not overtly sexist. He’d probably do the exact same thing to a smaller man. > [@](#): > > Yet another example: I’m a farmer. Part of what I do 4 times a week is eviscerate chickens. Blood and guts don’t phase me at all. Periodically, a couple of men I know shoot feral hogs on my property and slaughter them here. One of them never fails to warn me that I probably shouldn’t be part of the processing because I might get squeamish at the sight of gore. Hello, I probably spend more time with internal organs then a heart surgeon. Just because I have breasts and a vagina doesn’t mean I’m too delicate to deal with pig guts. That sounds like a great opportunity for a joke that knocks him down a peg. That’s how men need to be dealt with sometimes, and other men know it. Tell him he’d run away and cry like a baby if he saw what you do to chickens or whatever. A comeback line. You have to think like a high-schooler when dealing with us men. > [@](#): > > I realize that these aren’t ‘big’ issues like female circumcision or rape but they wear you down. They erode you. They’re subtle and invasive and I’m really tired of having to deal with them-especially with men ( and women) that should really know better. Yes, good point - the little things add up. We should not minimize them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/113 "2012-08-15T14:32:41Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > Would you compliment a male co-worker on wearing a new shirt? > No problem. > Would you leer at him and say “Wow-that shirt makes your biceps look hot?” > Probably not. > So don’t do it to a female co-worker. Um, that’s not sexism, it’s heterosexuality. Of course I wouldn’t tell a man his biceps look hot; to me, _they don’t_. Although given the likelihood of being accused of sexual harassment, I wouldn’t comment on a female co-worker’s appearance in any way. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/114 "2012-08-15T15:31:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*lance strongarm \*\*What should an individual man do to change that? Whatever I assume you are already doing if you dislike the current state of affairs. Vote. Speak up. Don’t buy into sexism.Don’t be a sexist and don’t accept sexism as the norm when you run into it. > [@](#): > > \*\*lance strongarm \*\*But that means women can’t turn around and use PMS as an excuse for their behavior when it’s convenient for them. Heck, that’s where men learned about it. Absofuckinglutely. I have zero zip nada tolerance for women who use the fact that they bleed as an excuse for silly behavior. Of course, I have exactly the same tolerance for the ‘boys will be boys’ justification for men behaving like an uncivilized asses. > [@](#): > > \*\*lance strongarmYou \*\*don’t think men use physical intimidation against other men? Or that women use it against other women sometimes too? > > Certainly it’s much more common among male-female situations, but it’s not overtly sexist. He’d probably do the exact same thing to a smaller man. You’re right. However, as you agree,it’s much more prevalent in male/ female confrontations. When you see it happening, speak up and correct it. > [@](#): > > \*\*lance strongarm \*\*That sounds like a great opportunity for a joke that knocks him down a peg. That’s how men need to be dealt with sometimes, and other men know it. Tell him he’d run away and cry like a baby if he saw what you do to chickens or whatever. A comeback line. You have to think like a high-schooler when dealing with us men. Trust me, I have no problem dealing with men like TJ (the culprit in this instance). When guys like TJ call me ‘girl’, I just respond by calling them ‘boy’ in my answer. Works every time. Sometimes I have to deliberately whoa myself down because I know he’s not the evil oppressor-just clueless. After a week of fielding various dumbass remarks in various situations, it can be hard not to go nuclear on the last poor sucker that says something screechingly stupid. > [@](#): > > Der Trihs > Um, that’s not sexism, it’s heterosexuality. Of course I wouldn’t tell a man his biceps look hot; to me, they don’t. > > Although given the likelihood of being accused of sexual harassment, I wouldn’t comment on a female co-worker’s appearance in any way. You know, I’ve never had a problem with getting a compliment from a hetrosexual male and neither have any of the women I know. Tell me I look nice today and my reply will be “Thanks!” Couch a blatantly sexist remark as a compliment and I’ll have your guts for garters. When I was a bartender back in the day, there were guys that would say “Nice dress you’re wearing tonight” and I would feel a bit perkier about the world in general. There were also the guys who would make me feel like bathing in Lysol after they ‘complimented’ my appearance. Maybe you should examine how _you_ give compliments if you’re afraid of being accused of sexual harassment. Maybe you give them in a smary tone of voice or maybe you leer. Or maybe you work with a group of particular females who would prefer that you not comment on their appearance at all. How would I know? To repeat, I’ve never personally known a woman that would accuse a man of sexual harassment for saying something nice in an appropriate setting and in the right context. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/115 "2012-08-15T15:39:18Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > Whatever I assume you are already doing if you dislike the current state of affairs. Vote. Speak up. Don’t buy into sexism.Don’t be a sexist and don’t accept sexism as the norm when you run into it. I agree. I do, or would do, those things. Some people seem to want much more, which is why I ask. > [@](#): > > Absofuckinglutely. I have zero zip nada tolerance for women who use the fact that they bleed as an excuse for silly behavior. Of course, I have exactly the same tolerance for the ‘boys will be boys’ justification for men behaving like an uncivilized asses. Well, at least menstruation is an actual physiological thing. I might act grumpy when I’m sick or couldn’t sleep last night, and I might say that’s why, though I wouldn’t use it as an excuse and I’d apologize. > [@](#): > > You’re right. However, as you agree,it’s much more prevalent in male/ female confrontations. **When you see it happening, speak up and correct it.** That goes without saying. This is where we get to the tough parts in discussions between the average man and a feminist - when the feminist suggests that the man do something that he considers already obvious, like urging him to stop a rape whenever he sees it. It can border on insulting. I’m not taking it that way from you, just pointing out a potential problem with how people talk about this–not complaining about what you said, just saying it reminded me of that. > [@](#): > > Trust me, I have no problem dealing with men like TJ (the culprit in this instance). When guys like TJ call me ‘girl’, I just respond by calling them ‘boy’ in my answer. Works every time. Perfect. > [@](#): > > Sometimes I have to deliberately whoa myself down because I know he’s not the evil oppressor-just clueless. After a week of fielding various dumbass remarks in various situations, it can be hard not to go nuclear on the last poor sucker that says something screechingly stupid. But isn’t that a little like “boys will be boys?” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/116 "2012-08-15T15:40:19Z")
BTW, jalzania, you look nice today. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/117 "2012-08-15T16:30:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*lance strongarm \*\*Some people seem to want much more, which is why I ask. Then those people will have to define what they want and what they expect from you. I can only speak for myself and that’s all I ask from men or women. Maybe there’s a group of militant feminists somewhere that think men should cut off their wankers as penance for the oppressive patriarchal system. I’ve never met any woman that believed that but could be one or two out there, I suppose. Personally, I think they’re crazy. Penises (penni? pennie?) can be great FUN. > [@](#): > > **lance strongarm** Well, at least menstruation is an actual physiological thing. I might act grumpy when I’m sick or couldn’t sleep last night, and I might say that’s why, though I wouldn’t use it as an excuse and I’d apologize. Being sick isn’t a physiological thing? Once again, speaking only for myself, I never found menstruating all that devasting. So I’d be more tired than normal and sometimes my stomach would hurt. Big deal. No worse than a mild cold. Same thing with menopause. Hot flashes are annoying but they don’t render me incapable of making decisions. Certainly don’t preclude my running a business or having my finger next to the nuclear missile button. It’s not like I’m going to bomb Iran because I’ve got bad cramps and the store is out of asprin. I get furious when I hear other women use bleeding or the lack there for of as a reason for being an asshole or a sniveling twits. It demeans me as much as having a man believe that menstruating is a deal breaker when it comes to the big grown up stuff I want to do. > [@](#): > > \*\*lance strongarm \*\*That goes without saying. > > This is where we get to the tough parts in discussions between the average man and a feminist - when the feminist suggests that the man do something that he considers already obvious, like urging him to stop a rape whenever he sees it. It can border on insulting. I’m not taking it that way from you, just pointing out a potential problem with how people talk about this–not complaining about what you said, just saying it reminded me of that. Yeah, it annoys my partner and best friend of 32 years when I state the obvious too because he’s the best feminist I know. Sorry. I just see this happening a lot in group dynamics but what I don’t see is other men speaking up. > [@](#): > > \*\*lance strongarm \*\*But isn’t that a little like “boys will be boys?” No, it’s like saying “TJ is a 58 year old rural Texan and I know his intellectual and cultural limitations.” Doesn’t mean I won’t call him on them every time but it does mean that I see no reason to totally humilate him in front of his friends. Pointing out how silly he sounds and making everybody laugh about it is enough. And maybe someday, if I keep doing that, TJ will figure it out on his own. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > BTW, jalzania, you look nice today. Typical male-pays me a compliment when he can’t even spell my name right. Probably too busy staring at my brain to see the name tag blazoned across my tits. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/118 "2012-08-15T16:46:32Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > You’re right. However, as you agree,it’s much more prevalent in male/ female confrontations. When you see it happening, speak up and correct it. Honest question: what’s there to correct? If an imposing man finds that he can leverage his nature to win disputes, under what principle should he stop doing that in favor of conducting arguments in a way that puts him at a disadvantage? In other words, where is it written that a dim ogre of a man should have to engage in neutral, reasoned discourse, even if it makes his head hurt? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/119 "2012-08-15T17:25:23Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > Then those people will have to define what they want and what they expect from you. I can only speak for myself and that’s all I ask from men or women. > > Maybe there’s a group of militant feminists somewhere that think men should cut off their wankers as penance for the oppressive patriarchal system. I’ve never met any woman that believed that but could be one or two out there, I suppose. Oh, they are out there, and they are on the Internet. > [@](#): > > Penises (penni? pennie?) can be great FUN. Now I can never eat penne again. > [@](#): > > Being sick isn’t a physiological thing? Yes. That’s my point - it’s a legitimate \*reason \*for mood swings, but that doesn’t mean it is an _excuse_. > [@](#): > > Once again, speaking only for myself, I never found menstruating all that devasting. So I’d be more tired than normal and sometimes my stomach would hurt. Big deal. Sure, but some women have horrible pain and other symptoms, as you know. > [@](#): > > Yeah, it annoys my partner and best friend of 32 years when I state the obvious too because he’s the best feminist I know. Sorry. I just see this happening a lot in group dynamics but what I don’t see is other men speaking up. Well, perhaps those men don’t want to be perceived as patronizing a woman. See the dilemma? This isn’t as easy as it sounds. No question that I’d step in if I saw a man beating on or clearly intimidating a woman (or anyone else) with a threat of violence. But stepping in when there is subtle intimidation like you said? Not so easy to know when to jump in. > [@](#): > > No, it’s like saying “TJ is a 58 year old rural Texan and I know his intellectual and cultural limitations.” Oh, I get it now - you’re a Texist. 😉 > [@](#): > > Doesn’t mean I won’t call him on them every time but it does mean that I see no reason to totally humilate him in front of his friends. Pointing out how silly he sounds and making everybody laugh about it is enough. And maybe someday, if I keep doing that, TJ will figure it out on his own. That’s fine, as long as you’re okay with it. > [@](#): > > Typical male-pays me a compliment when he can’t even spell my name right. Probably too busy staring at my brain to see the name tag blazoned across my tits. 😃 If you don’t want them looking at your tits, don’t blazon your name tag over them, **JLZANIA.** ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369/120 "2012-08-15T17:31:41Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Honest question: what’s there to correct? If an imposing man finds that he can leverage his nature to win disputes, under what principle should he stop doing that in favor of conducting arguments in a way that puts him at a disadvantage? In other words, where is it written that a dim ogre of a man should have to engage in neutral, reasoned discourse, even if it makes his head hurt? Right you are. And if we’re going down that road, why not just let fisticuffs settle all arguments? Why should a dim ogre of a man not just smack his opponent silly if that means he gets wins the dispute? Surely you’re being facetious when you ask that question. We’re all stuck here on the planet and we’re all facing some major problems. If we stifle some voices because we don’t think women or gays or lesbians or black people are qualified to participate in the debate because of their gender or sexual orientation or race, we risk losing vital answers. And in my experience, good smart people stop speaking out when they’re consistently bullied in group discussions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-be-a-feminist-without-believing-in-rape-culture-patriarchy/631369.md?page=7)