But we’re not talking about physical violence, we’re talking about behavior you consider intimidating.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I want to know what the underlying principle is.
I think the distinction between subculture and culture is important.
Sure, some men enable rape by acting as you describe. But that is a far cry from saying “we live in a rape culture”. Some feminists hate men. That is quite different from asserting that “feminism is a man-hating culture”.
“Some subcultures condone or excuse rape, and that makes them a rape subculture”. Sure, no argument. “Western society is a rape culture”. No, it isn’t, even if some of the subcultures contained within it say stupid things about rape.
Or even if they don’t. It seems like every discussion of rape on the SDMB is going to get someone trying like blazes to make anything posted except “we live in a rape culture” or the equivalent into “blaming the victim” or condoning rape.
The suggestion is often that, to change the “rape culture”, we need to teach boys not to rape, and not to condone or overlook it. In my subculture, we do that already. So maybe those who say “we live in a rape culture” are right about where they live, but they sure as hell aren’t right about where I live.
Regards,
Shodan
Couldn’t agree more.
I rarely find myself in a situation where I need to speak out against notions that rape is acceptable. Perhaps I associate with a better sort.
Yeah, it’s hard to make me convinced we live in some sort of homogenous rape culture when the only reason this skit is even funny is because there’s only one person in the room with moral doubts about the commercial.
Hilarious, thanks.
It’s what makes me uncomfortable when *we’re *engaged in a conversation or argument. It differs by individual. I’m 5’5" and 135 pounds. If you’re 6’2" and 250 pounds and you start leaning over me and raising your voice, I’m going to ask you to step back and speak more softly. I don’t think it’s that hard to pick up on the cues that you’re intimidating someone either. But back to your original quote. Emphasis mine.
Because engaging in **neutral, reasoned discourse **is how we learn, how we solve problems and build things.
I firmly believe one of the main purposes of the Internet is ensure that everyone can find someone just like them out there-no matter how strange or crazy or pervie they are.
Right and that’s usually a sign that something’s amiss with our girly parts or our hormones and we should seek medical help.
I don’t think it’s really all that difficult. I doubt you’d step in when a woman like me was involved because I’m obviously older and quite vocal. And you probably wouldn’t get a chance to anyway-I’d be dealing with the situation before you even got your mouth open.
I also suspect you’re very capable of recognizing when a someone is being intimidated in a group situation. Personally, my normal modus operandi is to ask for clarification from the perpetuator. As in “Hey, when you just asked Sally if she was on the rag this week, were you concerned with her health or are you peddling Tampons on the side?”
Gentle mockery can go a long way in this life. I save emotional annhilation for the bigger issues.
I wasn’t accusing you of staring at my tits. I was accusing you of staring at my big beautiful brain.
Funny aside. I sometimes wear T-shrrts with ‘sayings’ on them like “At least the war on the middle class is going well” or “War is when the government tells you who the bad guys are. Revolution is when you decide for yourself.”
I’ve noticed that guys (unless they know me) get uncomfortable just looking at my chest long enough to read them. Instead they glance and look away quickly. It’s amusing.
Bingo.
Sure, but like thousands of other maladies, sometimes symptoms just can’t be eliminated. I don’t mind if someone is a little moody, for any reason, as long as they are aware of it and deal with it.
Speaking as a man, I’ll tell you that it’s EXTREMELY difficult to navigate this hazard. It is by no means easy to figure out exactly when someone will want help. Maybe it’s easy for you, but you’re just one person.
That’s not the issue though. It’s whether a woman wants a man to step in and defend her when she’s being intimidated. Some might welcome it, others would find it patronizing and instrusive. It depends on the degree of intimidation happening too.
You can’t see how a woman might really really not want a man to step into her business and say something like that though?
If I see a woman who looks like she might need help from me, I try to hang close without saying anything just in case it goes too far. Same for anyone else.
Oh, in that case, I wasn’t staring at them. Not at all. Nope. Didn’t see either one of them. I swear.
So you’re amusing yourself by watching us play the glance and turn away game, huh? You haughty temptress.
Yes, while the “feminist who freaks out at men opening doors for her because she’s independent dammit” is a bit of a silly stereotype (though it does rarely happen, like anything), I can see somebody, woman or not, stepping in because a guy was kind of raising his voice in a heated situation like a political rally. “Jeesh, man, I had it under control. I don’t need ‘protection’ from Mr. Knight in Shining Armor here. The guy was just a little bit of a yelling douche!”
…one to secretly wish she was the bulb, and one to say “That’s not funny”.
But if it depends on the individual, then it isn’t a principle. You can’t take a behavior you dislike and cloak your position on it with the mantle of Feminism.
Your position isn’t unreasonable, nor is your response. I wouldn’t stand pat while some dude hulked over me and got heated. But just because it might scare women doesn’t make it presumptively wrong.
That’s a value judgment. Ask a Marine grunt how much neutral, reasoned discourse he engages in with his superiors. Yet he’s part of a system that solves problems and builds things.
Er, that second sentence should say: “I can see somebody, woman or not, reacting to someone stepping in…”
… and one to decry the culture that just presumes that bulbs go into sockets.
Now that’s typical; if anything bad happens it’s my fault, and mysteriously you’ve never run into any hypersensitive or just plain unpleasant women in your life. Nor have you met any women who complain about men being afraid to compliment them these days; I have.
And I said that I don’t offer women in the workplace complements or insults or any kind of comments about their appearance at all, not that I do so and it’s received badly. And women have been known to accuse men of sexual harassment for things like changing his shirt in his locked office while they peer though his keyhole, much less for a comment he’s made to their face. While sexual harassment is a real problem, let’s not pretend that the rules against it aren’t often easy to abuse, and have been abused.
ah, BUT… in that context, Gunny or the Colonel are precisely that, Pvt. Pyle’s duly appointed superiors in a specifically designed goal-oriented hierarchical order of discipline, so they are in the right to expect Pyle to shut up and obey.
Random Civilian A engaging Random Civilian B in a dominance/submission scene is not in that position. WE civilians should better use neutral, reasoned discourse with our peers (Naturally starting with recognizing the other person IS our peer ).
Nope, this is just another attempt to make male sexuality itself somehow deviant and/or vile. Of course most heterosexual men wouldn’t flirt with other heterosexual men, and would with heterosexual women. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If the woman makes it known that such flirting makes her uncomfortable, then it’s wrong for a man (or a woman) to continue such flirting. But ~gasp, shock, horror!~ some women actually enjoy being flirted with.
Of course, you added the word “leer”, trying to poison the very concept of flirtation. But maybe I get a pass as I did recently tell a male friend of mine that he’d look “badass” with a beard. Maybe I was leering when I said it, though.
That is not at all blaming the victim, that’s simply not being Pollyanna to the point of willful blindness. If I walk through a bad part of town alone after dark and get mugged, saying “dude, what the fuck were you doing there alone at that hour? Don’t you know it’s dangerous?!?” I’m not being “blamed” for being mugged, but someone is pointing out that I was not mitigating risk factors. Risk factors for violent crimes, including but not limited to rape, are not out to get women.
And, of course, some women will themselves say “I’m PMS’ing, and blah blah blah”. And, of course, some women really are more irrational when they’re under the effect of hormonal swings. Just like testosterone affects men’s moods. It’s part of the function of hormones, after all. But biology and the views of women themselves are both tools of the Patriarchy.
The crypto sexism in your rhetoric implies otherwise.
Standard mammalian behavior in general and primate behavior in specific. When in a confrontation, increase the volume of your vocalizations and attempt to adopt a posture to intimidate your adversary. Again we see that biology is out to get women.
Not being a man, I freely admit that I may not be aware of what a minefield this might be for you. Like you, I believe that the degree of intimidation has a lot to do with it.
I think that’s all that anyone, male or female can ask. Stick by, assess the situation and step in if needed.
I think body language has a lot to do with whether or not I intervene in a situation. If the person is obviously shrinking, stepping back, or covering their upper torso with their arms, I am more likely to step in and defuse the situation.
That’s me-57 year old chicken farmer and haughty temptress.
Maybe I’m wrong but I see Marines operating in very specific situations-situations that involve rapid fire decisions and cooperation under extremely stressful circumstances. I suspect a grunt doesn’t get to debate whether attacking an enemy position is the wisest move. That’s why the grunt learns to obey orders without question even if those orders are suicidal or just plain dumb. That may be the way to sucessfully overrun an enemy encampment but I don’t see the same set of skills as useful when you’re trying to build a barn or solve a community problem.
No I don’t know any women that would get their panties in a wad if complimented pleasantly and in the right context. However, if I’m trying to solve a problem and I’m talking to an animal nutritionist and he says “My you look nice today” in the middle of a discussion on the proper B-12 ratio in chicken feed, I would seriously wonder why he had chosen that time to comment on my appearance. If he persisted in mentioning my looks or dress or blouse, I would conclude that he was not taking me seriously or paying attention to what I was saying. That would elict a polite rebuke.
And of course, I’ve run into unpleasant women. However, unlike you, I can control my work place because I’m the employer. I’m not throw in with a mix of different people that someone else has hired. Likewise, with my social interactions. I don’t live in an urban environment so I don’t have to associate with a vast collection of strangers as I go about my daily business. I can be very selective about who I see regularly. You’re unpleasant to be around-you’re gone regardless of your sex.
I also don’t recall saying that if “anything bad happens” it was always your fault. How would I know that? I did suggest that maybe you weren’t good at giving compliments if you consistently got a negative reaction from all the females that you know or that perhaps you’re not very adapt at understanding timing and context. Or maybe the women in your work and social circle are all unpleasant ball breakers and you need to find another job and make new friends. Once again, how could I possibly know that?
But what’s the underlying principle? I can argue my position with a peer forcefully, and perhaps to them intimidatingly, without intending to dominate. Maybe we’re arguing about something that she feels ambivalent about but I feel very strongly. Do I have to argue like Spock?
BUT…even if I intend to dominate (it is an argument, after all), how does that implicate notions of patriarchy and sexism? If I can stare you dead in the eye and “win” the argument because my display cowed your gentle soul into not defending your position, what makes me the oppressor and you the oppressed in that exchange? Where does the feminism come in?
Ah, but that’s it - it’s NOT a sign of patriarchy/rape culture --sorry, I did not elaborate that and missed making the point. It’s of course a sign of dominance dynamics - I stand taller, move forward into the separating space, try to stare down the other side, that’s not necessarily a gender-power thing, but at its root just a plain power thing.
Second rule is that when you do, you include everything but the kitchen sink. Eg, McEwen lumps in homophobia with the rape culture. I would say it’s a different problem, though it comes from the same patriarchal attitudes.
By my definition, flirting is a two way street. You say "My you look good today and I respond “I always look better when I’m talking to a handsome man.” (Yes, I know that’s a inane example). Leering is focusing on my sexual bits while ignoring the rest of me. Sucessful flirting makes both parties feel good. Leering not so much.
In my experience, it’s not quite that simple. I shared a house one summer with two guys I thought I knew fairly well. We talked, we shared meals, we had friends in common. They both knew I had a boyfriend and neither had ever expressed any sexual or romantic interest in me. One night we ended up at the same college bar and I got hammered. I didn’t come on to either of them. I didn’t even dance with them. We walked home together and I went up to my bedroom, closed the door and passed out. I woke up about half an hour later to find Dave attempting to undress me. He assumed I was out for the count and that this was his golden opportunity to have sex with me-whether I was conscious and able to consent to the experience or not. How could I have predicted the ‘risk factor’? Should I have just assumed that all young males are potential rapists? Wouldn’t that be glaringly sexist on my part?
I’m not sure where I said that biology and the views of women are tools of the Patriarchy and I couldn’t tell you what ‘crypto sexism’ is if you pointed a gun at my head. I have met men that really believe that woman are somehow less qualified to make decisions and be in positions of power because they menstruate or go through menopause. Just like the man I encountered recently that sincerely thought Obama shouldn’t be president because because he was black and blacks are somehow innately incapable of governing
.
At one point in time, conflict resolution came down to bashing your adversity in the head with a rock when all else failed but I hope we’ve come a bit further than that in our social evolution.
And I don’t think biology is out to get women. I do think that women were seriously limited by the possibility of pregnancy until they got the means to control their reproductive process.
You strike me as very defensive about this issue.
Why?