# Possible to separate the dairy industry from the meat industry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 8, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695 "2004-09-08T23:42:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/1 "2004-09-08T23:42:28Z")
Please don’t mock me if this is a really ignorant question, but I was born and raised a city girl by city people. Also, I don’t want this to turn into a discussion of the merits of vegetarianism or a philosophical debate about the veal industry. Just the fact, ma’am. A friend and I were talking (totally theoretically) about the idea of having dairy animals, such as cows or goats. We are vegetarians and ran up against the issue of how to have lactating animals without producing lots of male offspring who would eventually become meat animals. I searched the web and found many sites detailing the connection between the milk industry and veal calves, and how we should all boycott milk because it is inextricably connected to the veal industry. Is it possible to have animals who produce enough milk for 2-3 people without producing a large amount of offspring? Or are there practical uses for these male animals aside from meat that I don’t know about? Can lactation be artificially stimulated after the first baby is produced? I assume that would require drugs-- would those drugs be harmful for people to ingest in the milk? Thanks for any info. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/2 "2004-09-09T01:33:09Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > how to have lactating animals without producing lots of male offspring who would eventually become meat animals. Well, you could breed you cows via artifical insemination, and use only semen selected for females. But that’s going to be expensive. And you do realize that most female ofspring also eventually become meat animals, right? P.S. I won’t say your question is ignorant, but accepting “I searched the web and found many sites detailing the connection between the milk industry and veal calves” as proof positive may be approaching ignorance. I can search the web and find many sites detailing how “the Holocost never happened”. So should I just believe that, 'cause it says so on the internet? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/3 "2004-09-09T03:40:47Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Well, you could breed you cows via artifical insemination, and use only semen selected for females. But that’s going to be expensive. > > And you do realize that most female ofspring also eventually become meat animals, right? They are not doomed to that fate automatically, though. In this theoretical scenario, of course. > [@](#): > > P.S. I won’t say your question is ignorant, but accepting “I searched the web and found many sites detailing the connection between the milk industry and veal calves” as proof positive may be approaching ignorance. > > I can search the web and find many sites detailing how “the Holocost never happened”. So should I just believe that, 'cause it says so on the internet? I never offered it as “proof positive.” I wanted to indicate that I had indeed tried to find the answer for myself on the Web and only found information about the connection between the two industries, not the info I wanted. Are you denying that there’s a direct connection between the dairy industry and the meat (esp. veal) industry? Please fight my ignorance by offering a citation or two to back up your inference here. I would be more than happy to be wrong. I wish you would refrain from comparing this to the Holocaust. PETA tried that and it went over like a lead balloon. Like I said, I don’t want to discuss any of that kind of rhetoric, and it doesn’t belong in GQ anyway. Please stick to the facts and politely educate me if you think I’m ignorant. Also, try to spell “Holocaust” correctly. ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/4 "2004-09-09T04:33:24Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > P.S. I won’t say your question is ignorant, but accepting “I searched the web and found many sites detailing the connection between the milk industry and veal calves” as proof positive may be approaching ignorance. That’s not what she said. She said she found the sites and is now asking if anyone knows the facts. Asking a question about information one has found online is far from ignorant. From [the National Institutes On Health](http://consensus.nih.gov/ta/007/007_statement.htm#2_What_is) page about milk: > [@](#): > > Milk is synthesized and secreted by the alveolar cells of the mammary gland, which do not fully develop until pregnancy. Full lactation (lactogenesis) is initiated at parturition when progesterone levels fall; progesterone inhibits milk secretion. In the cow, maintenance of lactation (galactopoiesis) does not require the continued production of prolactin, and it is believed that this function is carried out by the secretion of growth hormone from the pituitary gland. Although Ia dairy cow can continue to give milk for quite some time after pregnancy, the supply of milk diminishes over time unless she becomes pregnant again. The [Nebraska Agriculture in the Classroom](http://www.nefb.org/ag-ed/dairy.html) (hardly a PETA partner) page has this to say: > [@](#): > > The first milk the cow gives is called colostrum, which contains the nutrients and antibodies that the calf needs to stay healthy. The calf is weaned immediately after birth and fed the mother’s milk with a large nursing bottle. and > [@](#): > > Cows are milked for 305 days or about 10 months. Then the cow’s body needs to rest and store nutrients before she has her next calf. After the calf is born, the cow will resume giving milk. > Most heifers are bred to freshen at two years of age. After they give birth, they join the dairy herd and produce milk. The male calves are sold to feedlots, where they are fed until they are taken to market for their meat. Note that they say the male calves are sold to feedlots. Although I’m reasonably sure that veal calves also come from this source, that’s not necessarily the fate of all male calves of dairy cattle. The demand for veal is not all that great, after all. The [University of British Columbia Animal Welfare Program](http://www.agsci.ubc.ca/animalwelfare/research/dairy.htm) has this page about treatment of dairy cattle. They seem to be an organization that works with farmers. Those sites all deal with the production of milk on dairy farms. If you’re wondering about the feasibility of a one-cow operation, I found this page: [Keeping a Family Cow](http://www.real-food.com/). Their FAQ page says: > [@](#): > > Must a cow have a calf every year? > A few cows are able to " run through" and keep milking a second year with scrupulous management but production does tail off. and > [@](#): > > [a cow] has to have a calf first, and to give worthwhile amounts she has to have a calf every year with a nice rest period between lactations. They also say that “[l]arge dairies may only keep a cow for five years or less. Many Jerseys continue to produce a calf and be good milkers for 15 years.” In other words, there is no real way to get milk without also periodically producing calves. Some of those calves will be male, and it isn’t realistic to think that they might be put out in a field somewhere to live out their natural lives. Nor are any female calves in excess of the number needed to replenish the dairy herd, and the dairy cows who no longer have good rates of production are also generally sold for meat. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/5 "2004-09-09T05:16:01Z")
Another possibility is that someday, synthetic or biotechnologically produced hormones could be used to maintain lactation without the endless pregnancies. It would require some pretty cheap hormones, though, and there would sill have to be a few breeders. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/6 "2004-09-09T05:22:11Z")
Thank you so much, **InternetLegend** , for providing facts. Clearly you are a better researcher than I am. I guess the answer is, it’s very difficult to get milk from a cow over the course of years without creating calves who, if not sold for meat, will just eat feed and hang out. I’m a bit disappointed but this is the answer I expected. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/7 "2004-09-09T06:25:15Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > In other words, there is no real way to get milk without also periodically producing calves. Some of those calves will be male, and it isn’t realistic to think that they might be put out in a field somewhere to live out their natural lives. Nor are any female calves in excess of the number needed to replenish the dairy herd, and the dairy cows who no longer have good rates of production are also generally sold for meat. My extended family is involved in dairy farming, and I do not believe worn-out milkers are generally sold as meat for _humans_. This would be very low-grade beef indeed. According to my relatives, it usually ends up in dog food. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/8 "2004-09-09T06:50:31Z")
Dairy cattle that no longer are profitable for milk are sold for meat. They usually produce meat that is in the two lowest USDA grades, cutter and canner. Such meat can be used for pet food, go into those pricey little cans of meat that my mother used to say are made from “pigs lips and sows tits” or fillers for cheap stew meat, all sorts of other canned meat products and that sort of thing. The rule generally is don’t discard anything that can be sold. As the meat packers say about hogs, they make use of everything but the squeal. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/possible-to-separate-the-dairy-industry-from-the-meat-industry/263695/9 "2004-09-09T08:04:42Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Dairy cattle that no longer are profitable for milk are sold for meat. They usually produce meat that is in the two lowest USDA grades, cutter and canner. Such meat can be used for pet food, go into those pricey little cans of meat that my mother used to say are made from “pigs lips and sows tits” or fillers for cheap stew meat, all sorts of other canned meat products and that sort of thing. Including MCdonald’s burgers. [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3\_097b.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_097b.html)