# Post 9/11 if the USA had a real President/Leader ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806 "2003-08-17T17:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/21 "2003-08-18T01:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Republican \* > \*\*Please keep in mind it was a Democrat who had the Japanese rounded up and placed in camps during the great war. > I would applaud Bush for not deporting many of these immigrants after what happened. \*\* Bush might not be deporting… but he sure isnt treating them nicely. ``` Republican... why dont you stop posting Articles you havent bothered reading ? You just put a huge post on the crimes of Ms.Winnie Mandela. A woman NELSON Mandela divorced soon out of prison... I dont think NELSON had enough time to rape hundreds of women before he was put into jail as a political prisoner. I dont know what the Republican 101 History books say in this matter of course. ``` ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/22 "2003-08-18T01:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I Love Me, Vol. I \* > \*\*The Repub. > > First of all where did you copy all that info from? Or did you write it yourself? Plagerism doesn’t go over well here. > > Secondly, do you have any evidence that MISTER Mandela was involved in rapes and murders?? > > Good luck here on the Board. \*\* Thanks for the welcome. I did write that, and like I said at the bottom I have all the sources in my possession, so if you would like to see them I can definately list them. “Mister” Mandela. As I said above, simply use the information superhighway to search for this info, and after about 5-10 minutes you should find more than you are looking for. It cant just be coming out of my deranged mine if p0ink knew what I was talking about.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/23 "2003-08-18T01:51:11Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** **The Republican** , please review our [FAQ on Copyright Issues](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2079030#post2079030). I have replaced the text of the article you posted with a link to the source. (Incidentally, simply pasting the text of the article with no attribution to the source is not only a more serious sort of copyright infringement than at least attempting to give credit to the source, it also undercuts your own argument, since rather than being recognized as a story from the BBC, other posters may simply conclude what was posted was something you wrote, and perhaps something you just made up on the spot.) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/24 "2003-08-18T01:51:28Z")
ooops… mod beat me to it. Sorry. good show. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/25 "2003-08-18T01:51:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Republican \* > \*\*Thanks for the welcome. > > I did write that, and like I said at the bottom I have all the sources in my possession, so if you would like to see them I can definately list them. > > “Mister” Mandela. As I said above, simply use the information superhighway to search for this info, and after about 5-10 minutes you should find more than you are looking for. > > It cant just be coming out of my deranged mine if p0ink knew what I was talking about.🙂 \*\* Whoops, wrong thread.😉 The source for that article is [BBC.com](http://BBC.com). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/26 "2003-08-18T01:53:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\ ***Moderator’s Note:** **The Republican** , please review our [FAQ on Copyright Issues](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2079030#post2079030). I have replaced the text of the article you posted with a link to the source. (Incidentally, simply pasting the text of the article with no attribution to the source is not only a more serious sort of copyright infringement than at least attempting to give credit to the source, it also undercuts your own argument, since rather than being recognized as a story from the BBC, other posters may simply conclude what was posted was something you wrote, and perhaps something you just made up on the spot.) \*\* Ah I see. I apologize for that and will be sure to simply provide a link in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/27 "2003-08-18T01:54:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Republican \* > \*\*Whoops, wrong thread.😉 The source for that article is [BBC.com](http://BBC.com). \*\* You need to provide a link directly to articles you are citing; It is the ‘citers’ duty to provide the information, not the ‘citees’ duty to find it. Just trying to help you out! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/28 "2003-08-18T01:56:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\*Bush might not be deporting… but he sure isnt treating them nicely. > > ``` > Republican... why dont you stop posting Articles you havent bothered reading ? You just put a huge post on the crimes of Ms.Winnie Mandela. A woman NELSON Mandela divorced soon out of prison... I dont think NELSON had enough time to rape hundreds of women before he was put into jail as a political prisoner. I dont know what the Republican 101 History books say in this matter of course. ** > > ``` Hmm, Bush’s administration has made it illegal to single out Arabs at airports and other venues for search. I did read the article. Ive said numerous times in this thread that all the info is there for you. I am not a librarian, so I trust you to find it yourself if you would like to learn about what you are trying to debate. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/29 "2003-08-18T01:56:42Z")
Unfortunately Republican using several permutations on Google I can’t find any of the allegations you make against Neslon Mandela on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/30 "2003-08-18T02:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Republican \* > \*\* > “Mister” Mandela. As I said above, simply use the information superhighway to search for this info, and after about 5-10 minutes you should find more than you are looking for. > > It cant just be coming out of my deranged mine if p0ink knew what I was talking about.🙂 \*\* Do you even know who Mandela is ? Puink only called him a marxist… not a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/31 "2003-08-18T02:02:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*Unfortunately Republican using several permutations on Google I can’t find any of the allegations you make against Neslon Mandela on the internet. \*\* You have been searching for a whole 3 minutes? You have to filter though all the praise that is definately undeserved. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/32 "2003-08-18T02:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\*Do you even know who Mandela is ? Puink only called him a marxist… not a murderer. \*\* See my above replies. This is basic history, not classified information. Perhaps it is because I am older than you and therefore was around when he was released from prison and all the info that came out about him then? Im 36 by the way. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/33 "2003-08-18T02:15:09Z")
No, I searched the first fifteen pages of results for “Nelson Mandela” rape, anc, murder and several other combiantions of these words, but I couldn’t find any of the allegations you made, not even on . Now, if it’s so easy to find you find it, even at the 1963 Rivonia show trial he wasn’t accused of any of the allegations you’re making. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/34 "2003-08-18T02:16:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Republican \* > \*\*You have been searching for a whole 3 minutes? You have to filter though all the praise that is definately undeserved. \*\* Dude…You cannot say ‘Google it’ as an authorative cite. _You_ need to do the work. You need to provide links directly to the articles you are citing. Do not expect a link to a blog (unless it links on to an authoritive site) to count, nor would an editiorial (unless it provides some cites itself) to count. It’s good to see another conservative here, but in Great Debates, you _must_ cross every ‘t’ and dot every ‘i’. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/35 "2003-08-18T02:17:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\*One does wonder how world affairs would be today if in the post 9/11 attacks if a real statesmen were at the helm of the US. > > (Supposing the attacks would have been done independently of the president in office. I doubt any US president would have made Bin Laden cancel those well planned attacks.) > > Well imagine if either Churchill, Blair, Mandela or Roosvelt types were in command ? How would things have gone after the WTC ? How much better would the future prospects be ? Even if things went more or less the same way… how would less economic lobby meddling have changed things in a Iraqi invasion. > > ``` > Feel free to speculate, debate and dream... but do so with some substance behind your arguments. ** > > ``` I’m not sure if English is your primary language. Your grammar is perfect but I don’t understand your supposition: _“Supposing the attacks would have been done independently of the president in office. I doubt any US president would have made Bin Laden cancel those well planned attacks.”_ Please explain. I can address your opening statement intimating President Bush is NOT a real statesmen. History is littered with the bodies of “statesmanship”. Because people took Hitler at his word, millions of people died. I’ve never researched it, but that is probably a record homicide for 1 person. Churchill understood the nature of the beast and was willing to put everything on the line to stop him. He knew Hitler wanted to rule the world at any cost. The Saudi royal family understand the nature of the beast, but unlike Churchill, they were not willing to stand up to evil. They sold their soul to religious war lords in return for their safety. ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/36 "2003-08-18T02:55:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\* > I can address your opening statement intimating President Bush is NOT a real statesmen. History is littered with the bodies of “statesmanship”. Because people took Hitler at his word, millions of people died. I’ve never researched it, but that is probably a record homicide for 1 person. \*\* Minor nitpick - Hitler is probably #3 in the mass homicide list - Stalin and Mao have both got him beat. ☹ (Its sad that people that bad have actually existed.) Back on topic, any compent President would have invaded Afghanistan/gone after Al Quieda abroad, while tighting secruity at home, which are things that Bush did, given the 9/11 attacks. The pisoners in Gitmo - well that would depend on the “Great Statesman” in question, and onto the question of whether or not Iraq would have been invaded would have depended if the “Great Statesman” thought the US would benefit from it, and what types of intelligence that “Great Stateman” was getting from the CIA and NSA. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/37 "2003-08-18T03:34:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Dude…You cannot say ‘Google it’ as an authorative cite. _You_ need to do the work. You need to provide links directly to the articles you are citing. Do not expect a link to a blog (unless it links on to an authoritive site) to count, nor would an editiorial (unless it provides some cites itself) to count. > > It’s good to see another conservative here, but in Great Debates, you _must_ cross every ‘t’ and dot every ‘i’. \*\* I apologize, did not know this was the norm here, and I assumed there would be a difference between basic history and claiming whether or not Clinton was responsible for 9/11(another topic I shouldnt get into. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/38 "2003-08-18T04:25:36Z")
Hmm great leaders? I’m no Republican, but if you look at his father’s buildup to the 1991 war, here you have an example of what a competent leader can accomplish with a little bit of motivation. It is very easy to imagine a worldwide response to 9/11 that lasted beyond the few months of sympathy and the half-license for Afghani actions. It is easy to imagine new lasting alliances formed based on the common purpose of rooting out terrorism. While we certainly have apprehended some key figures, and we certainly have some new international cooperation, many of the key figures remain at-large, and al-Qaeda is still out there operating and blowing up hotels. For every step the Bush admin takes forward, they take two steps backwards. This is pervasive – our European allies have been distanced, anti-Americanism is at high levels throughout the developing world, North Korea is no longer contained (I agree that the Clintonian bribery may not have been the best course of action, but it seemed to work…), Israel and Palestine were left ot simmer for nearly three years, and both the domestic and international economy is still in the shitter. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/39 "2003-08-18T04:32:35Z")
Hmm great leaders? I’m no Republican, but if you look at his father’s buildup to the 1991 war, here you have an example of what a competent leader can accomplish with a little bit of motivation. It is very easy to imagine a worldwide response to 9/11 that lasted beyond the few months of sympathy and the half-license for Afghani actions. It is easy to imagine new lasting alliances formed based on the common purpose of rooting out terrorism. While we certainly have apprehended some key figures, and we certainly have some new international cooperation, many of the key figures remain at-large, and al-Qaeda is still out there operating and blowing up hotels. For every step the Bush admin takes forward, they take two steps backwards. This is pervasive – our European allies have been distanced, anti-Americanism is at high levels throughout the developing world, North Korea is no longer contained (I agree that the Clintonian bribery may not have been the best course of action, but it seemed to work…), Israel and Palestine were left ot simmer for nearly three years, and both the domestic and international economy is still in the shitter. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806/40 "2003-08-18T04:47:32Z")
Ok, this board is running quite slow so Im not going to bother doing everyones history homework tonight. I will say this about Mr. Mandela: Whoever doesnt believe how much of a piece of utter dog shit this man is needs only to research the ANC (African National Council). He and his former wife were the leaders, which oversaw the rape and murder of countless men, women, and children. No, I dont have a source at the moment for the reason listed above, but try Googling for the ANC and see what you find. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-9-11-if-the-usa-had-a-real-president-leader/195806.md?page=3)