# Post from 1980 about musical instruments in different keys. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 3, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-from-1980-about-musical-instruments-in-different-keys/714145 "2015-03-03T23:04:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-from-1980-about-musical-instruments-in-different-keys/714145/21 "2015-03-08T14:04:32Z")
Musicat, thanks for your response! > [@Musicat](#): > > Bass guitar (and bass viol) is written in the bass (F) clef, and an octave transposition is assumed. I hope that’s not open to question. That was my question. I was wondering whether electric bass players just read regular guitar notation in treble clef and transpose. It seems you are saying that they don’t. They read bass clef. > [@](#): > > I think “vb” is a Hollywoodism that’s intended to mean “an octave down,” but it’s best to use conventional notation to avoid confusion. What do you mean by “Hollywoodism”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-from-1980-about-musical-instruments-in-different-keys/714145/22 "2015-03-08T20:47:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Bass guitar (and bass viol) is written in the bass (F) clef, and an octave transposition is assumed. I’ve seen it written in treble clef with a two-octave transposition, but bass clef with one-octave transposition (like the double bass) is obvious, too. Maybe it’s changed since the 60s. I’ve almost never played it from staff notation, anyhow—just fake it from the chords. Nowadays I mainly play pennywhistle (and low whistle), anyway, with a little pipe and tabor. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-from-1980-about-musical-instruments-in-different-keys/714145/23 "2015-03-08T21:05:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That was my question. I was wondering whether electric bass players just read regular guitar notation in treble clef and transpose. > > It seems you are saying that they don’t. They read bass clef. Unless things have changed since I was active in Hollywood professional recording studios ca. 1970-1990, bass players read bass clef and their parts are exclusively written in bass clef. I’m talking about notes, not chords (what does a clef mean to chords?) it’s entirely possible that some guitar players, originally schooled in treble clef, didn’t “graduate” to bass clef during a migration to bass. This would be akin to Baritone Horn players who moved from trumpet, and still think in treble clef. But professional musicians, IMHO, don’t balk at learning a new clef – heck, think of woodwind players who must make multiple adjustments to accommodate the differences from single & double reeds of all sizes. They work in many different musical “environments.” > [@](#): > > What do you mean by “Hollywoodism”? Perhaps I coined that phrase, but sometimes practical considerations and local idioms trump long-standing musical standards. In commercial music, who gives a shit if it is pedantically “correct” to an uptight college professor as long as it communicates sufficiently to the intended player? Hence, I was exposed to many notational conventions that violated standard music engraving rules. I had feet in both camps, and could sometimes see the advantages and confusions of each. What’s a common “Hollywood” (commercial music) practice now might be an academic standard tomorrow. Music notation changes just like language does. The notation I learned in college was often tossed out by the players who were earning 10 times what their college professors were, and money talks. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-from-1980-about-musical-instruments-in-different-keys/714145/24 "2015-03-12T13:27:12Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Bass guitar (and bass viol) is written in the bass (F) clef, and an octave transposition is assumed. I hope that’s not open to question. > > Let’s clear up the 8va/vb stuff. 8va, meaning “at the octave”, and 15ma (two octaves) are typically used above the treble staff. 8va can be written below the bass staff, although an octave transposition is assumed for many bass instruments without mentioning it. 15ma below the bass staff would be out of reasonable range for anything. > > It is not recommended putting the 8va below the treble staff or above the bass. Consider using a more appropriate clef; that’s why we have different clefs. If there is confusion, use of “alta” (above) or “bassa” (below) can be appended. > > A dotted line is usually used from the start of the transposition to the end. The first note after the end should say “loco” to remind the player to discontinue the octaves. If the transposed passage is very long, you could dispense with the dotted line and say “8va sempre” (always) to make the music look a little cleaner. > > I think “vb” is a Hollywoodism that’s intended to mean “an octave down,” but it’s best to use conventional notation to avoid confusion. > > My references? Many years of working in professional music notation, plus Gardner Read, “Music Notation, 2nd Ed.,” and Carl A. Rosenthal, “Practical Guide to Music Notation,” and I’m sure I can dig up others if necessary. Excellent post, as usual. I would only add to it that “8va” is an abbreviation for “ottava”, and “15ma” is an abbreviation for “quindicesima”. I don’t know if “8vb” (presumably a contraction of “8va bassa”) is specifically a Hollywoodism, but I’ve definitely seen it in published charts. Powers &8^] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-from-1980-about-musical-instruments-in-different-keys/714145.md?page=1)