# Post illegal immigrant crackdown Alabama can't find farm workers - Wants to use prisoners? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 12, 2011, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886 "2011-12-12T07:17:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/1 "2011-12-12T07:17:41Z")
[Per this story](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/12/alabama-cant-find-anyone-fill-illegal-immigrants-old-jobs/45829/). Is this all going to be voluntary or can you force prisoners to do manual labor? > [@](#): > > Alabama The nursery and landscape industry will need as many as 4,000 workers in southern counties early in 2012 to get ready for the growing season, he said, and forestry and farming will require still more laborers. Unable to find legal residents to fill all the employment gaps, [Deputy commissioner with the Alabama Department of Agriculture and Industries Brett] Hall said the Agriculture Department is consulting with the Department of Corrections to determine whether prisoners could do some of the work.Can’t Find Anyone to Fill Illegal Immigrants’ Old Jobs ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/2 "2011-12-12T07:19:37Z")
It’s in the Constitution (13th Amendment), so I would guess so. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/3 "2011-12-12T07:45:22Z")
It’s a capitalist economy: just raise wages until you pay enough to find legal workers. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/4 "2011-12-12T07:55:51Z")
And what happens if the prisoners say “no”. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/5 "2011-12-12T08:02:46Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > It’s a capitalist economy: just raise wages until you pay enough to find legal workers. Summer of '98 I went to the UK and Ireland. I remember meeting some local lads in a village in Ireland. One of them said he was going to work as a farmhand. One of the girls in my group was all “Oh no…you should go to college!” He was all " I can make lots of good money." The thing is…if we had universal healthcare, there would be a LOT more people doing menial jobs. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/6 "2011-12-12T08:14:00Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Summer of '98 I went to the UK and Ireland. I remember meeting some local lads in a village in Ireland. One of them said he was going to work as a farmhand. One of the girls in my group was all “Oh no…you should go to college!” He was all " I can make lots of good money." > The thing is…if we had universal healthcare, there would be a LOT more people doing menial jobs. Ireland doesn’t have universal healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/7 "2011-12-12T08:26:34Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Ireland doesn’t have universal healthcare. [Oh really?](http://7.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/o_rly.jpg) :dubious: > [@](#): > > First posted by **[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland)**: > All persons resident in Ireland are entitled to receive health care through the public health care system, which is managed by the Health Service Executive and funded by general taxation. The article goes on to say that some fees are chargeable in certain circumstances, but that is the case in nearly all universal healthcare systems. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/8 "2011-12-12T13:33:28Z")
> [@astro](#): > > And what happens if the prisoners say “no”. Any man says “no” spends a night in the box. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/9 "2011-12-12T13:43:46Z")
Considering prisoners will only be paid a fraction of what the illegal immigrants were making, I expect this idea will really take off. I imagine the prison corporations are positively drooling over the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/10 "2011-12-12T14:18:20Z")
There certainly used to be forced labor by inmates. They built a lot of highways in the south. And yes, their pay will be paltry. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/11 "2011-12-12T14:19:37Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Considering prisoners will only be paid a fraction of what the illegal immigrants were making, I expect this idea will really take off. I imagine the prison corporations are positively drooling over the concept. OK, now it’s all starting to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/12 "2011-12-12T14:22:22Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Considering prisoners will only be paid a fraction of what the illegal immigrants were making, I expect this idea will really take off. I imagine the prison corporations are positively drooling over the concept. The farmers don’t care what the prisoners are paid. They care what they have to pay the prison to obtain the labor. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/13 "2011-12-12T14:29:01Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It’s in the Constitution (13th Amendment), so I would guess so. Thirteenth Amendment: > [@](#): > > Section 1. Neither slavery nor **involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,** shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. > Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. Bolding mine. Involuntary servitude is legal as punishment for a crime. [Chain gangs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_gang) were common in the US south before the 1950s. The only place that still uses them is Maricopa County, Arizona, although it’s on a volunteer basis. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/14 "2011-12-12T14:42:03Z")
The plan to “lease” prisoners to private employers in the agricultural sector, to work at low or virtually no wages, is legal in states that do not have local laws to the contrary (which a couple states do). Nothing in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA - minimum wage law) nor the US constitution forbids it. Prisoners can be made to work for no pay without violating the Constitution. Usually they do get a few cents an hour though. ETA: normally prisoners cannot produce goods at miniscule pay which compete on the open market with goods made by free labor (there’s a law called the Ashurst-Sumners Act) but agriculture is an exception to this general rule. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/15 "2011-12-12T14:42:06Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > The thing is…if we had universal healthcare, there would be a LOT more people doing menial jobs. Without straying into GD territory, can you explain why you know this to be true? Off the top of my head, it seems like the more benefits you get without having a job, the less likely it is that you will feel the need to get one. But maybe I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/16 "2011-12-12T15:32:09Z")
If you need the health care, you either have to find a job that supplies it as a benefit, or you have to find a job that pays enough to pay for it directly. If it’s supplied, you can take a lower paying job and still survive. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/17 "2011-12-12T15:38:36Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Summer of '98 I went to the UK and Ireland. I remember meeting some local lads in a village in Ireland. One of them said he was going to work as a farmhand. One of the girls in my group was all “Oh no…you should go to college!” He was all " I can make lots of good money." > The thing is…if we had universal healthcare, there would be a LOT more people doing menial jobs. > [@ruadh](#): > > Ireland doesn’t have universal healthcare. > [@njtt](#): > > [Oh really?](http://7.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/o_rly.jpg) :dubious: > The article goes on to say that some fees are chargeable in certain circumstances, but that is the case in nearly all universal healthcare systems. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Without straying into GD territory, can you explain why you know this to be true? > > Off the top of my head, it seems like the more benefits you get without having a job, the less likely it is that you will feel the need to get one. But maybe I’m missing something. > [@Yllaria](#): > > If you need the health care, you either have to find a job that supplies it as a benefit, or you have to find a job that pays enough to pay for it directly. If it’s supplied, you can take a lower paying job and still survive. [Moderating] The subject of this thread is the use of prison labor. The issue of health care is at best tangential. If you want to discuss health care, please open a new thread in Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/18 "2011-12-12T16:15:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The farmers don’t care what the prisoners are paid. They care what they have to pay the prison to obtain the labor. Yes? And? The prisons will be able to provide that labor much cheaper than… well, anyone else. How does this bolster your argument or deflate mine? I guess I don’t understand what nit, in particular, you’re picking. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/19 "2011-12-12T16:23:46Z")
> [@astro](#): > > And what happens if the prisoners say “no”. Years ago, a friend got into some trouble in Georgia. Going out to work on the highway was considered a good thing; it was offered to “good prisoners”, and it contributed to early release. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886/20 "2011-12-12T16:27:04Z")
Prisoners can be ordered to work and they can’t refuse. It’s completely legal, as Colibri pointed out. We may not have chain gangs but there are plenty of work crews that come close. Go to Buffalo after a major snowstorm. Who do you think those guys in orange jumpsuits that you see shoveling snow are? Same thing done south when you see a bunch of guys piling sandbags before a flood. Or when you see a bunch a guys picking up dead limbs in a park or litter along a highway. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-illegal-immigrant-crackdown-alabama-cant-find-farm-workers-wants-to-use-prisoners/605886.md?page=2)