I think if, in the course of events, Wednesday’s insurrection turns out to be the worst thing Trump does, it makes sense to wait, maybe even the hundred days. Don’t rush, take plenty of time do a full investigation to determine the extent of his culpability and to put together a case detailing the entire scheme, not just the attack itself.
But I don’t think inciting an insurrection will end up being the worst thing Trump does. We still have over a week to go.
I don’t disagree completely, but there’s the balancing of high minded objectives and real world realities.
I’m glad he has been voted out and he has been in tremendous denial about it. I’m not satisfied, however.
We’ll have to agree to disagree here. IMO he has set a precedent that can’t go unchallenged. It hasn’t ended yet—they’re talking about what may happen at the inauguration? Sure but also in state capitols etc.
He’s done some huge damage and he isn’t done. He needs to be held up as an example that nobody’s above the law.
I hope Ann is wrong but I can’t guarantee it.
I agree that his precedent is disturbing, and if we were in more ‘normal’ times I would agree with setting counter-precedents. Unfortunately, I think we’re in a much more desperate situation.
I’m not as interested in symbolic punishments or precedents now; Biden needs to succeed - period. There’s no guarantee that he will, but that’s what people want.
Extraordinary times demand extraordinary reactions. Sometimes dad pulls the car over and lays down the law, you know? The rest of the trip will have to wait because this shit cannot go on.
Trump whipped up the crowd and if I understand correctly Giuliani and Alex Jones were also stoking them. Off they went, on a mission. No. Just no.
A balance needs to be struck but both need to happen. Biden needs to get it going and Trump needs to be dealt with.
If we’re looking for a “way out” of this mess, then I think twitter’s given us our answer. What happened on Wednesday is the result of years and years of collective irresponsibility, which most certainly includes a refusal by businesses to be good corporate citizens. At some point, if democracy (self-governance) is to succeed, then individuals and organizations in private life are going to have to prove themselves worthy of self-governance – not a goddamn thing that elected officials can do to “correct” our misbehavior in this regard.
That’s why I don’t really lean much on impeachment. You want change? Demand that Twitter, Facebook, and others start reflecting your values. Hope that other individual citizens can start seeing the impact of their actions.
Our problem is us. It’s hard for me to explain, but impeachment only works if we are well; we are not well. We are collectively corrupted and broken. We have to fix ourselves first.
True, but that includes identifying the corrupt, and seeing to it that they are punished. This includes Trump, as well as those forces that led to his rise to power.
I don’t disagree, but we have, what, 10 days to impeach and convict Trump and the Senate won’t even be back until like a day or two before Biden’s term starts – so what’s the point of convicting a president who’s already out of office? The whole point of impeachment was to provide a mid-term remedy. The people, the voting citizens of this country, have already “impeached” him. These voters want results, not something they’ve already achieved (removal from office).
I’ll say it again: Biden must succeed. He has lot of fucking problems he has to deal with, and solve.
His supporters are, of course, claiming that their first amendment rights are being trampled. Um, hate speech, slander, libel, etc.? I’d like to live in a world where the followers on Twitter recognize the BS and don’t cause problems. I think that’s where we really need to be.
That said, I think we’re in the Wild West here. We need to launch a jillion lawsuits about websites or tv channels posting false, inflammatory information? It’s proliferating beyond our capacity. It’s whack-a-mole time.
Back in the 1970s, I remember seeing people sheepishly taking a copy of the National Enquirer off the rack at the supermarket checkout. “Yes I know aliens didn’t really father this woman’s baby…but I love the recipes.” A lot of what these people follow is the equivalent of the National Enquirer, only it isn’t so benign these days.
Agreed. This can’t be regulated.
I don’t think it’s a magic bullet, certainly. But I think it’s stated in the language of the politician, something he will understand, a moment for the record and many of them being narcissists, some politicians will think about that for how it will impact their legacy. “Only president to ever be impeached twice.” Yeah.
In other thread(s) I think there are other potential penalties, forfeiting some of the perqs afforded an ex-POTUS.
I really think that Biden and the Dems have to deliver the goods, and then progressives (citizens of all stripes really) generally have to demand better. I think we have to pressure social media companies to de-platform this right wing shit, and then we have to pressure mainstream media to stop this “both sides” crap. I don’t know of a way to force them to do it; we just have to hope they recognize the gravity of the moment. But in terms of governing, they have to focus on what they can actually achieve and get done. I think impeachment beyond January 20 is a waste of time. We’ve got millions out of work. Millions in danger of losing homes. Millions who are in danger of dying of a pandemic. Biden has to be the guy to help fix that; if he’s seen as wasting his time on political revenge, he will lose, and so will we.
Yes, if you look at my first post in this thread (the second one after the OP’s), you’ll see the other things they could potentially take away if they choose to (pension, SS detail, office and travel budget). I’m all for it. I don’t want to pay another dime of public money to this person.
Putting aside barring him from public office, Congress could do all of the rest of that by ordinary legislation. No need to seek the supermajority needed for an impeachment.
A Secretary of War was impeached after resigning.
I can agree with that…with a huge caveat. We are collectively damaged but we’ve been in an abusive relationship. It’s a dynamic that can’t be treated with standard mediation techniques. If a woman is being psychologically abused because her husband doesn’t like the way she folds the towels, there is no legitimate solution that involves her practicing her towel folding skills and any solution that does is just furtherance of the abuse.
This is something I posted earlier elsewhere, I really think this message needs to come across.
This both sides thing not a good thing.
Stop it.
Abusers are very good at making their victims they did something wrong,too. That they have a mutual problem they both need to work on.That we need to work it out together.
STOP
You’ve done nothing wrong. You were as good to them as you possibly could’ve been. The would not have treated you differently under any circumstances unless you gave them everything they wanted and more. You have nothing to work on. The problem is all on one side.
It’s a gaslight. The Trumpublicans have been relentlessly gaslighting liberals for four years now. We need to cut them off and cut them out NOW.
If they really want reconciliation, they will all stand up and acknowledge Joe Biden as the legitimate President of the United States and admit you don’t want to implement socialism and burn down their small towns. But I can promise they won’t. I’d love to be wrong, and if I am I’ll gladly admit it.
I’ve been in a psychologically abusive relationship, not with a romantic partner but quasi-foster child in his late teens. It’s insidious if it’s relentless. It got me, and I am forever grateful to the therapist that caught it. The one I went to with the intent of trying to work out my problems with the kid.
I know the dynamic inside out and I’ve been watching this play out for years. That is what this is. If they stop this rebel cosplay and stop pretending that an illegitimate government is taking office, we’ll talk.
The problem is our culture, which goes way, way beyond our politics, which are a reflection of our culture. We’re much closer to destruction than we realize, which is why I say that what matters is that whoever is in charge, whoever we elect, has to be regarded as effective. All the other usual bullshit – precedents, standards, etc – don’t matter. They mattered once upon a time, but not now. What matters is effectiveness.
Not to toot my own horn, but I will remind everyone that I was right when everyone else said I was nuts. The “normal” solutions to our problems would have worked years ago. Now? No. We have to understand we’re in a crisis. We need effectiveness now.
Oh, you’re absolutely right and I applaud your fortitude. I largely agreed with you, the problem was I had very little to say (I wish the boards had a like button) beyond he’s a criminal and a con artist and he’s probably sitting in the White House destroying our government.
I’ll admit I underestimated the fervor of his supporters and the problems it would cause.
My phrase of the day seems to be “I think we are suffering from a lack of imagination in this moment”. We don’t think the crazy stuff. We think Trump might be a petulant baby at the end of his term. We don’t think he’ll muster an army of 30,000 brain-washed conspiracy theorist nut jobs and goes to war with Congress. That would sound crazy.
Maybe we need to treat it as a public health crisis. Right wing media is a poison, a drug, an addiction and it causes mental illness and brain damage.
So, they Impeach …again. The Senate Acquits…again.
Why rush into that?
Someone needs to talk turkey to Cruz, point out if he wants to run in 2024 as head of the MAGAs (this is clearly his stupid, evil plan), he needs to help stop trump from running again.
Yes, because she knows damn well she cant get 2/3rds of the Senate.
How much power did Moscow Mitch “share” with Schumer?