# Post-Powell's Address: "Smoking Gun" Redux **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980 "2003-02-05T17:00:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/41 "2003-02-05T19:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > _bayonette_ > \ > Yeah! Those whinning Kwaitis with their “oh, he invaded my country, please help us”, bunch of wimps And those UN-war-mongerers with their “oooh, now we have to liberate those poor Kwaitis”, bunch of hawks. Oh, and don’t get me started on the Kurds with their whimpering “oh, he gased us, he’s bad, bad, bad.” The Guld War, what a bunch of crap. > \ Iraq was duped into invading Kuwait by the US in the first place. (Kuwait has a terrible civil rights record of its own, btw.) We _supported_ Hussein while he was gassing the Kurds (during the Iran/Iraq war). The Gulf war was all about oil, number one, and poll ratings, number two. If Bush had actually cared about the Iraqi people, he wouldn’t have hung them out to dry after inciting them to topple Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/42 "2003-02-05T19:54:37Z")
Where is Neville Chamberlain when we need him? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/43 "2003-02-05T19:59:14Z")
Iraq was duped…? No, it’s ok, I don’t wanna know. France seems to be singing a different song now. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/44 "2003-02-05T20:02:46Z")
Can I get a cite for how the US duped Iraq? Remember, I don’t want to take anyone’s word for it. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/45 "2003-02-05T20:03:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Iraq was duped into invading Kuwait by the US in the first place. (Kuwait has a terrible civil rights record of its own, btw.) We _supported_ Hussein while he was gassing the Kurds (during the Iran/Iraq war). > > The Gulf war was all about oil, number one, and poll ratings, number two. If Bush had actually cared about the Iraqi people, he wouldn’t have hung them out to dry after inciting them to topple Hussein. \*\* First of all, it’s bayonet, not bayonette, that’s my sister. And second of all, you really believe that don’t you? \<\\> ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/46 "2003-02-05T20:04:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*That’s _Adlai_ Stevenson. \*\* :sheesh: Can’t even sneak in _one_ brain fart on these boards. Nope. Not a one. I _meant_ to say Darrin Stephens. I was hoping Samantha would then come in, do a cute little wiggle of the nose, and show me some smoking gun type evidence. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/47 "2003-02-05T20:08:57Z")
OK, Iraq has bio and chem weapons that they’re hiding from the inspectors. We knew they had bio and chem weapons back when we were in their corner, in the 1980s. I only hit CNN’s “main points” from Powell’s speech, but I didn’t see anything about nukes. The question Powell is trying to answer for us here is, “War on Iraq: thumbs up or thumbs down?” But I’m still one question back - “How did we choose Iraq to be the country we’re doing the thumbs-up or thumbs-down on? Why them, and not Pakistan or Zimbabwe?” - and nobody in an official capacity is bothering to answer _that_ one. And until they do, it’s like the cartoon with “then a miracle occurs” in the midst of all the formulae. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/48 "2003-02-05T20:13:59Z")
[US ambassador April Glaspie to Saddam Hussein. July 25, 1990](http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/saddam_glaspie.html) > [@](#): > > “We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960’s that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America.” > > (Saddam smiles.) Sorry about your name, **bayonet 1976**. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/49 "2003-02-05T20:18:14Z")
**Diogenes** : I see absolutely no justification for your claim that the 1990-91 Gulf War was about poll ratings. In fact, the Daddy Bush admin spent much of the fall largely unsuccessfully trying to convince the American public that we should go to war to liberate Kuwait from Iraq. They tried one argument and another - at one time, the Bushies were trying to persuade us that we should go to war on account of the economy. Finally, they said, “Saddam might possibly have nukes,” and that won Bush a fairly thin majority of the American people to his side, which was reflected in a fairly thin pro-war majority in Congress. But there was little indication ahead of time that the war would bolster Daddy Bush’s poll numbers. I can see why it might look that way in retrospect, but during the fall of 1990, war did **not** look like a political winner. At all. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/50 "2003-02-05T20:25:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*But I’m still one question back - “How did we choose Iraq to be the country we’re doing the thumbs-up or thumbs-down on? Why them, and not Pakistan or Zimbabwe?” - and nobody in an official capacity is bothering to answer _that_ one. \*\* The answer is found in this joke: \*The United Way campaign realized that they had not received a donation front one of their very successful businessmen. They actually did a little research on him and discovered that he made a half million a year, and yet he did not give a penny to charity. So they sent some young fellow off to see him. He told him what their research had revealed and wouldn’t he like to give something back to the community. And the businessman replied by saying, “Well did your research show that my mother is dying from a long illness and has medical bills several times her income?” “Well,” the young man said, “No. It didn’t reveal that.” “Well, did your research reveal that my brother is a disabled veteran? He’s blind and confined to a wheelchair.” At this point the young man began to stammer and was wishing he were out of there. But the businessman went on and said, “Did it reveal that my sister’s husband died in a traffic accident and left her penniless with three children?” At this point the young fellow wished he were never there at all, but the businessman kept going, “So, if I don’t give any money to them, why should I give to you?”\* It makes sense to disarm Iraq by force and to replace the Baath Party rule, so we should do it. Period. We are not going to attack Pakistan or Zimbabwe. So what difference does it make whether or not their government deserves to be overthrown? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/51 "2003-02-05T21:10:06Z")
A couple of weeks ago **december** offers a poem as a citation. Now it’s a joke. One of these days, I expect to look down from one of his asterisks and find that the footnote is a mint julep. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/52 "2003-02-05T21:17:23Z")
Okay let’s say for one moment that the information that Powell presented was real and valid. Why aren’t the inspectors at the locations that are purported to have chemical weapons **now**? Why wasn’t that information given to the inspectors before? What interest does the US have in keeping it a secret until now? Are they in cohoots with Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/53 "2003-02-05T21:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > I only hit CNN’s “main points” from Powell’s speech, but I didn’t see anything about nukes. It’s in there, under “aluminum tubes”. Been there, done that. > [@](#): > > The question Powell is trying to answer for us here is, “War on Iraq: thumbs up or thumbs down?” As regards the UN, it’s more like “Will you back up what you said about disarming Iraq?” That only requires agreement that Iraq is flouting the earlier resolutions, as a matter of policy. Powell did make that particular case well enough for an indictment, if not a conviction, and it will be interesting to see how the Security Council acts - but I don’t see a reason to expect more than increasing the, well, forcibility of inspections, with a time scale running into US election season (making the tickertape parades, if any, too late). The questions we USers are still asking go beyond that, though, and stem from the other parts of the spectrum of rationales Bush has treated us to. The UN’s credibility was only raised late in the game, after getting Saddam and “regime change” and “imminent threat to the US” and “if not the US, then imminent threat to other Middle Eastern countries” and “the bastard tortures his own people” and “he sponsors Al-Qaeda” and “we have to rebuild the Iraqi nation (hah!)” had been either unsuccessfully test-marketed or proven to have inadequate-to-no credibility. In answer to those questions, Powell had nothing new to offer. > [@](#): > > But I’m still one question back - “How did we choose Iraq to be the country we’re doing the thumbs-up or thumbs-down on? Why them, and not Pakistan or Zimbabwe?” - and nobody in an official capacity is bothering to answer _that_ one. In fairness, they _could_ say that one does what one can, and Iraq is more doable. But I don’t think that’s the case, either - the evolving rationales and skimpy facts, along with other reports that the Iraq invasion was decided upon well before 9/11, suggest something more simple-minded. **december** , good joke but totally irrelevant, and your attempt at a substantive answer was also not to the point. If it makes sense to go after Iraq and its , why does it not also make sense to go after Pakistan’s? Saying that one country deserves it but we’re simply not going to do it elsewhere is hardly an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/54 "2003-02-05T21:40:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay let’s say for one moment that the information that Powell presented was real and valid. (1)Why aren’t the inspectors at the locations that are purported to have chemical weapons now? (2)Why wasn’t that information given to the inspectors before? (3)What interest does the US have in keeping it a secret until now? (4)Are they in cohoots with Iraq?(Numbers mine) (1)Not much point, since Powell’s evidence showed that there is a system for alerting and moving the prohibited material. (2) We don’t know that it wasn’t. If it wasn’t it could be for a number of reasons, especially the desire not to comprimise methods or sources. (3) See answer to (2) (4) No, but I assume you are joking. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/55 "2003-02-05T21:42:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*This is pretty weak stuff IMO. You have a couple of guys talking vaguely about “evacuating” something and some indecipherable sattelite photos. I certainly am not going to take Powell’s word for anything as to what this stuff means. How do we even know when and where that conversation was taped. It doesn’t really reveal anything anyway. There is nothing here which warrants an invasion. Show me an actual WMD, not just some guys that might be talking about WMD’s or might be talking about their porno stash. \*\* This has been alluded to earlier in this thread, but I’d like to put the question to you directly: do you think the evidence put forth by Colin Powell today on the existence of WMD programs in Iraq is weaker than the evidence of Soviet missiles in Cuba presented to the UN by Adlai Stevenson a little over forty years ago? If not, why? N.B.: I’m not asking you if the existence of such a program justifies military action; I’m only asking about the factual case presented. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/56 "2003-02-05T21:43:03Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s in there, under “aluminum tubes”. Been there, done that. Wrong. > [@](#): > > The high tolerance aluminum tubes are only part of the story. We also have intelligence from multiple sources that Iraq is attempting to acquire magnets and high-speed balancing machines; both items can be used in a gas centrifuge program to enrich uranium. > In 1999 and 2000, Iraqi officials negotiated with firms in Romania, India, Russia and Slovenia for the purchase of a magnet production plant. Iraq wanted the plant to produce magnets weighing 20 to 30 grams. That’s the same weight as the magnets used in Iraq’s gas centrifuge program before the Gulf War. This incident linked with the tubes is another indicator of Iraq’s attempt to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/57 "2003-02-05T21:49:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*As to what I mean by a “direct threat.” I mean, show me that Iraq has both the _ability_ and the _desire_ to hurt the US. I would stipulate that Hussein has the desire. I have yet to see proof that he has the ability. I need to see more that a few cans of nerve gas (even he even has that). Show me that he can actually hurt _me_ personally. \*\* I take it that a threat to US allies in the region is insufficient reason in your view to pursue armed conflict? Are you effectively saying that the US cannot ever give an ally a guarantee of military support in order to ensure that ally’s security? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/58 "2003-02-05T22:04:39Z")
**Beagle** , “is attempting to acquire” is not synonymous with “has”, nor is “can be used for Purpose A” synonymous with “can _only_ be used for Purpose A” or “is obviously intended for Purpose A”. I would have thought that the aluminum tubes story would have made you more chary of accepting the Bush interpretation without reservation, even though he may accidentally be right on that point. It’s still easier to smuggle a nuke out of the former Soviet republics than to make your own, isn’t it, assuming that’s your goal? **Dewey** , what rationale for a predecided war are you using today? Is it the same one as yesterday, or six months ago, or tomorrow? Step back and assess the facts as they are before deciding what needs to be done and who is to do it, please. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/59 "2003-02-05T23:13:16Z")
**Elvis:** > [@](#): > > In fairness, they could say that one does what one can, and Iraq is more doable. But I don’t think that’s the case, either - the evolving rationales and skimpy facts, along with other reports that the Iraq invasion was decided upon well before 9/11, suggest something more simple-minded. The latter half of your statement doesn’t support the former. Yes, it was decided well before 9/11 that regime change was desired in Iraq. Why? Because Saddam has been refusing to agree with the conditions of the Gulf War cease-fire for a decade now. It is true now, and it was true before 9/11. So how does that imply that the idea of “do what you can, when you can” doesn’t hold here? If you would like, though, I can list off some of the countries that are most commonly brought up in the “Why don’t we attack them?” smokescreen the anti-war folks like to offer. (And I say “smokescreen” because the question is disingenuous - if the US said, “Okay, we’ll attack them too”, war protesters would run from that argument like the wind.) North Korea: They already have nukes. If we attack them, they would level Seoul, and could potentially attack the US directly. Pakistan: They have nukes, too. Iran: While they may have or be seeking WMDs, there is a strong uprising amongst the people that has a very real chance of being able to push the nation towards democracy. Regime change may happen on its own. Saudi Arabia: They support terrorism, but they’re less of an obvious threat to surrounding nations. Also, not politically feasible. And, here’s the most important bit: Not a single one of those other nations - not a single nation in the world, other than Iraq - is in violation of UNSC resolutions set in place to negotiate a cease-fire. So, do you want to hang on to that easily refutable and completely useless notion of “Why Iraq?”, and try to formulate some real arguments? I mean, there are a number of intellectually sound arguments against a war in Iraq, why does the anti-war crowd cling to that one like barnacles on a boat? Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980/60 "2003-02-05T23:18:30Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s still easier to smuggle a nuke out of the former Soviet republics than to make your own, isn’t it, assuming that’s your goal? In movies it certainly is. Seriously, I don’t know. I’ve read the briefcase bomb evidence, and I’ve read the evidence which suggests that the briefcase bomb evidence is crap. I would agree that the weak part of the presentation, evidence wise, was the nuclear part. There have been numerous defectors through the years who have testified that the nuclear program is large. Iraq has acknowledged a nuclear program, though they deny its existence now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-powells-address-smoking-gun-redux/152980.md?page=4)