# Post Something Interesting About English **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836 "2017-03-23T15:46:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/81 "2017-03-24T02:10:36Z")
> [@ioioio](#): > > All your language belong to us. What happen? Someone set up us the Grammar Nazis. We get complete sentence. What? ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/82 "2017-03-24T03:19:47Z")
All of this -gry/-gree debate is over what linguists call ["happY tensing.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_high_front_vowels#Happy_tensing)" Most Americans use the tense variant (same vowel sound as in the word fleece) for the unstressed vowel at the end of the words angry and happy. Some speakers in the southern USA and conservative RP speakers have the lax variant in this position, so that angry and happy end with the so-called “kit” vowel. Listen to the way Queen Elizabeth says the word “history” at 1:18 in this clip. It sounds to most Americans like she is saying “a successor to the kings and queens of _historeh_”. I suspect that \*\*Darren Garrison **speaks in an accent approaching the lax variant**. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/mBRP-o6Q85s/maxresdefault.jpg "The Christmas Broadcast, 1957") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBRP-o6Q85s) \*\* ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/83 "2017-03-24T05:45:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > These are identities for me, so I’m not sure what distinction you’re pointing out. This. “Canoes” may as well be spelled “canews”. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/84 "2017-03-24T05:53:46Z")
Are we still fussing about hungry / angry / pedigree ? Here’s what I think is really going on, which **RivkahChaya** and **jtur88** hinted at but didn’t quite explicitly say: The ‘ng’ in hungry and angry is a single sound (same as in fussing, going, and single), distinct from ‘n’ followed by ‘g’ pronounced as two separate consonants. Dictionaries break these words into syllables as an-gry and hun-gry because of slavishly applying the rule that the syllable break comes between two consecutive consonants. But the ng in each is really one sound: ang-ry and hung-ry. Or, alternatively, ang-gry and hung-gry, maybe. The IPA spellings that I’m finding on-line are /'æŋgrɪ/ and /'hʌŋgrɪ/ or maybe /'æŋ.grɪ/ and /'hʌŋ.grɪ/ Pedigree is: /ˈpedɪˌɡri/ So if you pronounce angry and hungry as /'æŋ.grɪ/ and /'hʌŋ.grɪ/ then maybe they rhyme with pedigree. But if you pronounce angry and hungry as /'æŋ.rɪ/ and /'hʌŋ.rɪ/ (which seems more right to me) then they don’t rhyme with pedigree. I think this is why some of us say they all rhyme and some of us say they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/85 "2017-03-24T06:10:38Z")
But we’re not talking about rhymes, we’re talking about the “grɪ” sounds, which are common to all three words. If pedigree were spelled “pedigry”, it wouldn’t sound any different. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/86 "2017-03-24T06:53:04Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > So if you pronounce angry and hungry as /'æŋ.grɪ/ and /'hʌŋ.grɪ/ then maybe they rhyme with pedigree. Yes. I don’t pronounce any of these words with just a nasal, but with nasal + g. Looking online, that’s how I see it in all the dictionaries online, US or UK. It does seem, though, that the UK dictionaries show the final vowel as /ɪ/ (in “angry” and “hungry”) vs /i/ (in “pedigree”) or even /i/ vs /i:/ (respectively) as an issue of length. My accent definitely does not produce an /ɪ/ sound at the end of any of those words. /i/ vs /i:/ is certainly possible, but I don’t think I lengthen it, either. [This English to IPA](http://lingorado.com/ipa/) site does seem to think it’s a UK vs US thing, with the final syllable identical in all three words in English (/gri/), but with the UK pronunciation of “pedigree” getting extra length (/gri:/). So it looks like it varies. But in my Great Lakes accent, it’s the same in all three. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/87 "2017-03-24T09:49:28Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > They have EXACTLY THE SAME vowel sound at the end: “gree”. > [@pulykamell](#): > > I’ve never heard “angry” and “hungry” _not_ rhyming with “tree.” I’m still confused. I agree. 😃 mmm ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/88 "2017-03-24T10:47:52Z")
> [@Patx2](#): > > besides orange and purple, Flange can rhyme with orange, as does Ange, a contraction of Angela (and similar names); turtle rhymes with purple. > [@](#): > > the word month also doesn’t rhyme with anything. There’s bumf. Note these are not all _perfect rhymes_; that’s a different question. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/89 "2017-03-24T11:18:15Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I agree. “Agree.” Another word that rhymes with pedigree but not with angry or hungry. Along with chickadee, Nanny McPhee, I gotta pee, DVD, and _Allons-y_ (but not Allanzo.) No matter how many all caps words people want to post, pedigree continues and will continue to _not_ end with the same vowel sound as hungry and angry for me. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/90 "2017-03-24T11:54:12Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > No matter how many all caps words people want to post, pedigree continues and will continue to _not_ end with the same vowel sound as hungry and angry for me. That may be, but for a lot of us, they DO end with the same vowel sound, no matter how many times you say they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/91 "2017-03-24T12:16:15Z")
And now for something completely different… The adjective ‘naked’ is actually the past participle of the obsolete verb “to nake” meaning to strip of its covering [cite](https://books.google.com.au/books?id=tEd_M9ZSFd8C&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=naked+past+participle&source=bl&ots=ysu4HI0_CA&sig=zFEr-D4jXkOnETMpj_GQFHSSJDA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq2O-Ije_SAhVHGZQKHQaTC6UQ6AEIWDAM#v=onepage&q=naked%20past%20participle&f=false) So in its original sense, newborn babies were not truly naked. They had never been stripped of any covering! ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/92 "2017-03-24T12:26:04Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > English has 37 words for “snow” but no word for “rain”. Isn’t the English word for “rain”, “rain”? ---
**Author:** ![Turpentine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Turpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/93 "2017-03-24T12:34:41Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And then there’s [verdigris](http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/pronunciation/american/verdigris), which has exactly the same ending as angry, hungry and pedigree… and lots of other words. You’re probably saying it wrong. It’s supposed to sound like “verdigreeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.”😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/94 "2017-03-24T12:54:14Z")
Angry, hungry, pedigree: The first two are stressed on the first syllable and the second is unstressed. The third also has its main stress on the first syllable, but a secondary stress on the last. Whether this constitutes a rhyme is really a matter of definition. To me it does, but YMMV. One really characteristic of English is the use of attributive nouns. I once saw in my car service station a cardboard dispenser on the wall holding “brake drum adjustment screw hole covers”, i.e. little round rubber (or plastic) plugs made to cover brake drum adjustment screws. Five attributive nouns in a string. German has similar things but makes a long compound word out of it. It is worth noting that in ordinary (unmarked) English, the attributive differs from adjectives in being stressed more highly than the noun it modifies. Consider the following sentence in which I have capitalized the stressed word (and the sentence is actually true on the McGill campus): The BROWN building is the brown BUILDING. Prosody is important in English, as the angry, hungry, pedigree question also illustrates. It is much less so in French where speakers try to have the same stress on every syllable (though definitely false for Quebec French). ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/95 "2017-03-24T14:18:08Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > “Agree.” Another word that rhymes with pedigree but not with angry or hungry. Along with chickadee, Nanny McPhee, I gotta pee, DVD, and _Allons-y_ (but not Allanzo.) > > No matter how many all caps words people want to post, pedigree continues and will continue to _not_ end with the same vowel sound as hungry and angry for me. And how would the pronunciation of pedigree be any different if it were spelled “pedigry”? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/96 "2017-03-24T14:21:48Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Consider the following sentence in which I have capitalized the stressed word (and the sentence is actually true on the McGill campus): The BROWN building is the brown BUILDING. I would stress “brown” in both phrases. After all, you’re indicating what is distinctive about the building, not stressing that it is a building. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/97 "2017-03-24T14:30:37Z")
> [@RunSilent](#): > > A fat chance and a slim chance mean the same thing. [Bart Simpson] I didn’t think it was physically possible, but that both sucks AND blows!! [/BS] ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/98 "2017-03-24T14:35:07Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And how would the pronunciation of pedigree be any different if it were spelled “pedigry”? See, this is what I keep saying over and over. I understand (now) that not every dialect pronounces “pedigree” the way it is pronounced in my area, but in my (gonna drop a silly buzz term here, gag me now) “lived experience” the end sound for the words are completely different. The end sound of the words “angry” and “hungry” are short, clipped vowel sounds and the end sound for the word “pedigree” is a long, extended vowel sound. The end sound is exactly the same as for the word “chickadee” (and no, I don’t pronounce it “chickadeh”) And I don’t pronounce angry as “angree”, nor hungry as “hungree.” I’m honestly astonished that this seems to be such a point of confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/99 "2017-03-24T14:40:34Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I’m honestly astonished that this seems to be such a point of confusion. I think the confusion came about because you weren’t explaining what you meant all that well. And the fact that it seemed like you were explaining it to people who pronounce angry and pedigree with different ending sounds, so they already knew what you meant. For me, and I would guess almost all of America, the ending sounds of angry and pedigree are the exact same, so your explanations were kind of confusing. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836/100 "2017-03-24T14:41:45Z")
This could very easily turn into a Gallagher routine: Q-U-I-C-K: quick B-U-I-C-K: bwick? no. Where’s my mallet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-something-interesting-about-english/782836.md?page=6)