# Post-war liberal guilt **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591 "2003-06-13T15:26:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/21 "2003-06-13T17:04:08Z")
**Evil One** , I for one would like our country to be held to a slightly higher standard than behaving _slightly better_ than a murderous shit like Saddam Hussein. He killed thousands of innocent people. We killed thousands of innocent people. Those numbers are in some sense irrelevant, as this is not over yet – we can’t just count up the deaths and rule ourselves the moral victors. A few comments: 1. Before the war, Bush stood before the world and said that we must invade Iraq because he had unmistakable proof that Saddam _currently_ possessed thousands of tons of WMD and was planning to use them against the U.S. and its allies in the very near future. We were in imminent danger, and had to act fast. The danger was so great that we couldn’t take the time for the inspections our allies requested. We couldn’t take the time to gather more intelligence on where these WMD were, in order to secure them quickly when war did come. We couldn’t take the time to plan and prepare for post-war administration of Iraq. To go to war in this fashion severely damaged an interational reputation that took decades to build. Had we been in imminent danger, it would have absolutely been worth it. However, we were not. Even if WMD are found, there were none that were even remotely close to being immediately usable by the military – canisters of VX buried in some desert somewhere does not constitute an imminent danger. If a major goal in Iraq was the welfare of the Iraqi people, why wasn’t it mentioned until the war started? International support for helping the Iraqi people would not have been hard to get. **But** , it may not have been support for a war, which is clearly the only course of action the administration wanted to take. 1. War and inaction are (thankfully) not the only ways to resolve a problem. This is one of the reason many countries are so pissed at us. Without evidence of imminent danger, the reasonable thing to do is exhaust all other options first. In the case of humanitarian concerns, there are quite a few options. 2. If we overthrow Saddam but the region decends into anarchy or is ruled by a different military dictator, then we have not made the Iraqi people’s lives better. We’ve only made our own lives worse, as hatred against the United States grows and grows. What is our plan to prevent this from happening? I have yet to see one. 3. Our actions can not be judged in a vacuum. If you only look at the deaths under Saddam vs. the unintentional casualties of the war, then one could make a case for our concern for the welfare of the Iraqi people. However, our acftions in the last twelve years contradict that. **Hundreds of thousands** of Iraqis died under the sanctions, which for several years prevented the import of food and medicine. Even after the Oil for Food program was implemented in 1995, we only allowed food to go through Saddam, a man we knew was a murderous dictator who didn’t care about his people. We didn’t do anything while hundreds of thousands died, but you expect people to believe that we spent hundreds of billions of dollars to stop the deaths of mere hundreds? This war was a mistake, sold to us as a lie. We’ve traded international relations and hundreds of billions of dollars we sorely need for nothing. If Bush had an ounce of diplomacy or sense, we could have accomplished the same thing without the cost. He is truly a disgrace to this country and everything it is supposed to stand for. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/22 "2003-06-13T17:05:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > \*\*Other than not reacting to the plot to kill Bush the Elder, Clinton was irrelevant to Iraq. He was content to let the UN handle things. The pillaging of the oil-for-food program is one example of how that worked out. \*\* Sigh, no. Remember when Clinton bombed Iraq and Al Queda, and all the Pubbies and their drones were crying “wag the dog” and how **wrong** it was. Guess that makes you all filled with “liberal guilt” too. There are extensive Cites to this in the numerous “Where the hell are the WMD threads”, if you’re dumb enough to claim this didn’t happen. Seeing your grasp of the basic facts seems so shaky, the rest of your poorly thought out sloppy posts are no surprise. Yeesh, at least **december** bothers to find a few Cites to misrepresent, or tries to come up with a limrick or two. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > \*\* > What sort of cite would you like? An internal Saddam security force memo listing who would be tortured today? Saying that 4218 civilians had been killed instead of 4000? A list of WWII casualties by country? Asking for cites of the obvious seems to be an attempt to undermine the intent of the post itself rather than a concern for accuracy. \*\* Try _any_ Cites for anything you are claiming. Everyone else seems to be able to come up with them- there were 5 threads on this topic, filled with Cites. Yet you bravely avoided those threads and posted a simple minded new thread with absolutely no support. Well done. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > \*\* > > Attempt to mock the president and miss the point. -100 points. \*\* Wow, how original. Lets see, not just an “attempt” there was actual mocking to be seen even by the dullest reader. Let me drum up a few Cites for you. Maybe you will learn something. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/23 "2003-06-13T17:15:40Z")
thanX, **Evil One**. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/24 "2003-06-13T17:25:17Z")
WMD threads within the last 2 weeks with **lots** of actual Cites-- will the wonders ever cease? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=189071](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=189071) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187955](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187955) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=189069](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=189069) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=189236](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=189236) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=184657](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=184657) And interesting artcle on why so many people are changing their opinion, on this issue- beyond just the lying about WMD, Al Queda ties point ect. Read and learn: [http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16148](http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16148) > [@](#): > > Americans are increasingly seen as bullies. They are no longer defending anything in Iraq, and so are treated as unwelcome occupiers by the citizens, who protest and fire on them. Some 41 have died since May 1, when President Bush declared that military action in Iraq had ended; some in accidents, others from enemy fire. > > Finally, it looks like the idea of the Iraqi mission as a self-terminating job is a vain hope. The American military will be there for a very long time. > > So, for Phil and for others, the Iraqi war looks like it was sold under false premises, and they are beginning to wonder why they bought it. > > Margaret Mead had one other observation that is relevant here: Americans value straight dealing, and hate being cheated. When they are cheated, their anger knows no bounds. Here, I will provide you a Cite, that actually somewhat supports your position, seeing you remain clueless or unwilling to do the work yourself: [http://www.charleston.net/stories/061303/ter\_13karbala.shtml](http://www.charleston.net/stories/061303/ter_13karbala.shtml) > [@](#): > > Through a rickety bullhorn came chants demanding that U.S. forces occupying Karbala pay the salaries of soldiers in the disbanded Iraqi army and pensions to veterans. > > But the protest earlier this week was perhaps most remarkable for what was missing. Not once was there a chant denouncing the U.S. occupation, a staple of demonstrations elsewhere in Iraq. See that wasn’t so hard now was it? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/25 "2003-06-13T18:32:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*Notice my italics. It would be “Saddam and his goons” and “Uday Hussein” who were the guilty parties in this event. Luckly, we got there first and became the guiltly parties. Just because someone is going to die doesn’t make it okay for you personally to kill them. If I heard that my neighbor was up for a gang hit, it’s not like if I run over there and shoot him first I’m not going to be found guilty of murder. > > When evaluating international politics, you have to look at who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. Congrats. We’ve become the bad guy… > > \*\* We went to great lengths and expense to avoid killing civilians. Anyone who disputes that is blinded by ideology. Again, if we were there just to “spill blood for oil” by “sacrificing our minorites and poor for the sake of the rich” we would not have been so careful. Now, more people are alive that would not have been had we not intervened. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > > I don’t understand. Are you argueing that it is a good thing that we went over there and _actually_ started killing people? So that Saddam Hussein couldn’t lie about us anymore or something? > > \*\* Yes. The vast majority of the people we killed were fighting for Saddam. They were warned not to and given instructions on how to surrender. They chose not to do so. In dealing with these people, innocent civilians were killed. Had we not been so concerned, their death toll would be higher. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > > No amount of justification in the world will change that it was the US that killed them. Nothing will make their death blameable on someone else. > > \*\* You have not bothered to separate combatants from civilians. Your statement also indicates an unwillingness to let circumstances or reality stand in the way of your ideology. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > > I’m sure the greiveing families are glad that they can take more showers. I’m equally sure that you will be glad when you are finally “liberated” from your Great-Satan government and given the chance to live in a worldwide Muslim utopia, even if it did cost your daughter’s life. > > \*\* I see what you are trying to do…put me in the place of an Iraqi civilian. Got it. However, your scenario will never take place, and we both know it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > > We are evil because we _started a war_ that, if it wern’t for our actions, would have never happened. Not because we fought in one. > > \*\* Saddam had to go. I’m not going to try to educate you as to why because the above statement indicates an unwillingness to accept facts in the real world.\*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/26 "2003-06-13T18:49:37Z")
elf6C, forgive me if I have offended your sense of board ettiquite. Most of my OP is opinion…therefore posted here. The facts I do reference are basic and understood by most people, i.e. Saddam killed people by the thousands and we spent a lot of money on hyper-accurate weapons. “Now that the war is over, civilians are safer and better off than before.” Is this one of them you have a problem with? I believe it to be true in general. We could debate the meaning of “safer” and “better off” all day long with multiple cites. However, I feel that you will question the validity of any cite I give you rather than accept it at face value. Therefore, no, I not willing to do the work myself. Finally, allow me to opine on the playing of “Cite Tag”. I realize my paltry 120 posts make me a SDMB baby in many eyes. That’ where some of the condesention is coming from. But in many cases it seems the last resort of trying to knock down a post or a poster is to scream “CITE”. I don’t recall anyone asking for a cite of a fact they agree with. I feel like what I posted was along the lines of “The sun is bright”. I would not feel it necessary to provide a candlepower analysis and current GPS coordinates and National Weather Service data to support my claim that the sun is bright in the very spot at the very time I claim it to be. Therefore, when I make statements like “Saddam was evil” and Genocide is bad" and “We did a good thing in stopping it”, a linking and quoting frenzy will not follow. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/27 "2003-06-13T18:49:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > **… Saddam had to go. I’m not going to try to educate you as to why because the above statement indicates an unwillingness to accept facts in the real world.** But why? Or rather why him, and why now? I have yet to encounter somewhat who was against this war (oops I mean battle or police action or whatever doubleplusgood newspeak I should call it) that is not also convinced that Iraq was in the clutches of a ruthless dictator. That being said, there are as bad or worse out there that we are doing nothing about. The logical conclusion is that this after the fact humanitarian argument is false. This is not to say that the Iraqi people do not have the potential to be better off because of our intervention. I will be waiting to see how much effort we really put in to reconstruction and so forth (how are things going these days in Afghanistan, by the way?). The main point is that it is really looking as if we were lied to about why we went there. Like it or not WMD that were a direct threat to the USA was the main reason that we were handed. Given the fact that a lot of us do not trust Bush, and the mounting evidence indicating that we were misled, you can understand our ire. If there was some Jack-Secret reason to be there, the time to lay the cards on the table has come. In any event, I guess that if I feel any “Liberal guilt” it is that we are not screaming as loudly for positive reconstruction efforts as we could be. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/28 "2003-06-13T19:01:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > \*\* > This is not to say that the Iraqi people do not have the potential to be better off because of our intervention. I will be waiting to see how much effort we really put in to reconstruction and so forth (how are things going these days in Afghanistan, by the way?). > > The main point is that it is really looking as if we were lied to about why we went there. Like it or not WMD that were a direct threat to the USA was the main reason that we were handed. Given the fact that a lot of us do not trust Bush, and the mounting evidence indicating that we were misled, you can understand our ire. If there was some Jack-Secret reason to be there, the time to lay the cards on the table has come. > > \*\* Good points. We owe it to the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to keep our promises and clean up our mess. We also need to do it for our credibility. And on the credibility note, WMD’s in large numbers have not yet been found. More time is needed to search before the “I told you so” frenzy begins. If they are never found, then the intelligence failure needs to be addressed. For those of you desperate for a conspiracy of an evil President Bush intentionally lying…sorry. I don’t think it’s there. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/29 "2003-06-13T19:20:49Z")
We should finish in Afghanistan. So far we have secured Kabul. Most of it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/30 "2003-06-13T19:21:22Z")
> [@](#): > > However, your scenario will never take place, and we both know it. So you’re admitting that the US never was and current is not in grave danger? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/31 "2003-06-13T19:25:05Z")
How much “more time is needed to search”? On what planet? Reality check: _They’ve already quit. There’s nowhere else left to look._ Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/32 "2003-06-13T19:33:11Z")
even sven---------- “We are evil because we started a war that, if it wern’t for our actions, would have never happened. Not because we fought in one.” HEY,Speak for yourself. That’s your guilt trip not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/33 "2003-06-13T19:40:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > \*\*I feel like what I posted was along the lines of “The sun is bright”. \*\* I completely agree. Now, please stop staring at the sun. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/34 "2003-06-13T19:41:04Z")
**Evil One,** please don’t take this the wrong way, but I sometimes think you might be retarded. I’m not going to bother wading through your foaming, dittoheaded, freeperisms and re-educating you point by point. I am instead going to attempt to illuminate, for you, an important fact. THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER IN THE LAST 12 YEARS, AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY REASON, STOPPED FUCKING THE IRAQI PEOPLE IN THE ASS. America has insisted on the enforcement of sanctions which did nothing to loosen Saddams grip on power and nothing to stop him getting his hands on WMD’s. The Iraqi people, on the other hand, were getting fucked in the ass. In the aftermath of Gulf War 1 George Bush urged the Iraqi people to rise up but then didn’t bother giving them the manpower and weaponry to finish the job. The result? 40,000 Iraqi’s lost their lives and Saddam retained power for another 12 years. America, again, _fucked the Iraqi people in the ass!_ After Gulf War 1 America did not properly orchestrate a cleanup operation to eradicate the radioactive waste from our depleted uranium shells. It could easily have done so but just…didn’t. Apathy, I guess. The result is that the amount of Iraqi children developing cancers of all shapes and sizes, has increased 5 fold since Gulf War 2 while it has decreased virtually everywhere else in the world. Read ‘The New Rulers of Earth’ by John Pilger to fiind out more. To cut a long and tragic story short, the Iraqi people were (surprise!) bent over and cockshafted without lubrication. The pseudo moralistic ‘Johnny Come Lately’ handwringing you warheads have engaged in as it becomes clearer and clearer that it is your only remaining casus belli rings as hollow as the inside of your Cromagnon skull. Here’s a little test: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Assume that each of the above asterisks represents 100 Iraqi children (making a total of 10, 000). How many would you have been willing, at the start of this conflict, to sacrifice to liberate Iraq? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Assume that each of the above asterisks represents 100 American children. Also assume that [This child](http://www.pfemergencyservices.org/tiny.htm) was killed in an attack which was a direct response from Al Quada to the US invasion of Iraq. Also assume such attacks would continue unless America stopped its invasion of Iraq. How many American children would you have been willing to sacrifice? If there is any disparity in the figures please account for it. Oh, and by the way > [@](#): > > We went to great lengths and expense to avoid killing civilians. Anyone who disputes that is blinded by ideology. Again, if we were there just to “spill blood for oil” by “sacrificing our minorites and poor for the sake of the rich” we would not have been so careful. Now, more people are alive that would not have been had we not intervened. This is a complete fucking lie. We could have been far more careful than we were. Case in point: [Premeditated Slaughter of Innocents](http://www.thenorthstarnetwork.com/news/topstories/181855-1.html) Click on the above link to read about the American bombing of a residential complex in an attempt to kill the by then the deposed, powerless and completely impotent Saddam Hussein. While I’m sure it would have made an absolutely luscious little PR coup for baby Bush, I doubt that justification (compelling as it is) would make much difference to the innocents who perished in its execution. Question: Imagine I were a vigilante who knew of an active serial killer who, for reasons I’ll leave to your imagination, was above the law and I decided to take him out. If I planted a bigassed bomb in his car which killed him but also 10 innocent bystanders can I be considered a moral man if the serial killer would have killed 20 more people if I hadn’t intervened? Or would my actions betray my actual disdain for human life and make me the killers moral equivalent? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/35 "2003-06-13T19:48:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > \*\* The vast majority of the people we killed were fighting for Saddam. They were warned not to and given instructions on how to surrender. They chose not to do so. In dealing with these people, innocent civilians were killed. Had we not been so concerned, their death toll would be higher. > \*\* \*\* [/QUOTE] What the hell is this nonsense? They were fighting for their country. If the U.S. is invaded by Canada to relieve us from the oppresive regime of George Bush, do you advocate that we not fight back? Do you advocate that we surrender immediately so that there is no collateral damage? To apply that line of reasoning to people defending their country from a foreign invasion is specious and sophmoric. Countries have, just as people have, a right of self-defense and a right not to get beat up by the neighborhood bully. Out of all the simplistic things you’ve said in this thread, this ranks right down there. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/36 "2003-06-13T19:50:39Z")
Good call **TYM**. I can’t believe we missed that particular piece of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/37 "2003-06-13T19:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > **Saddam had to go. I’m not going to try to educate you as to why because the above statement indicates an unwillingness to accept facts in the real world.** You know, I was going to hazard a guess that you’ve been lifting your comments from Anne Coulter op-ed pieces. Now I see that this was wrong, however… you’ve been lifting from pro-war television commercials. Enjoy your “real world,” there, bud. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/38 "2003-06-13T20:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > “Now that the war is over, civilians are safer and better off than before.” > > Is this one of them you have a problem with? I believe it to be true in general. We could debate the meaning of “safer” and “better off” all day long with multiple cites. However, I feel that you will question the validity of any cite I give you rather than accept it at face value. Therefore, no, I not willing to do the work myself. Here’s the problem, friend: that you “believe it to be true” is meaningless; it might or might not be true. Now that the war is over, reportage from Iraq is way down, and it’s difficult to get a good fix on where things stand. But there are reports that armed gangs rule the night in Baghdad and other major cities, and that Iraqi women are virtually prisoners inside their homes out of fear of the lawlessness - and these women and girls hadn’t felt so constrained under Saddam. So there is evidence suggesting that, for many Iraqis, postwar Iraq is more dangerous than prewar Iraq was. Now you see why cites are helpful? You don’t need one for “Saddam was evil” but you just might for “the current situation is an improvement,” or for how much of an improvement it is. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/39 "2003-06-13T20:14:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > \*\*For those of you desperate for a conspiracy of an evil President Bush intentionally lying…sorry. I don’t think it’s there. \*\* I’ve presented my case on that in a number of threads, including [this current one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3559557#post3559557). Nobody’s had much of a counter-argument yet. C’mon over and give it your best shot. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/40 "2003-06-13T20:22:26Z")
Y’all should realize that the deaths mentioned came from hospital records. You don’t really believe that every civilian who died in Iraq made it to the hospital do you? How many remain in the rubble of buildings? How many were vaporized in a direct hit? The true number, if it is ever known, will be much higher. But, according to people like evil whatever, any cost in civilian lives is worth it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591.md?page=3)