# Post-war liberal guilt **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591 "2003-06-13T15:26:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/61 "2003-06-14T12:22:04Z")
Evil One: > [@](#): > > And on the credibility note, WMD’s in large numbers have not yet been found. …Covering my eyes to protect them from the glare of that bright sun… ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/62 "2003-06-14T12:36:27Z")
At this time Evil One is unable to provide you with cites due to issues of national security. To reveal his sources would endanger the lives of Karl RoCENSOREDk Cheney and CENSOREDfeld. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/63 "2003-06-14T12:41:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*Y’know, Dave, one thing that I’ve never understood about some posters at this place is their tendency to ‘rewrite’ what they’ve said moments ago _in the same thread_. As if we couldn’t go back and look. > So let’s roll tape, shall we? > 'Nuff said. \*\* And what I find distasteful about you is your continued insistance that black means white. When I said: > [@](#): > > Oh, don’t blame yourself, you were awful busy with all of the other bullshit you’ve been spewing, nobody blames you for missing a little piece of bullshit when you’re waste deep in the stuff. That’s a texbook example of saying “that’s bullshit”. “'nuff said?” Why don’t you say something of some accuracy and/or substance first, before trying to wrap it all up. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/64 "2003-06-14T12:47:09Z")
I trust **Rt** and **'Dave** will kiss and make up before the next DC Dopefest. I like both of you guys immensely, and I hate to see two posters throwing irrelevant personal insults back and forth. Argue the facts, not personalities. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/65 "2003-06-14T12:53:57Z")
I guess we’ll find out today, I’m pretty sure RT’s goiing to ribfest and I know I am. It’s a damn shame that all he seems to want to do lately is throw insults my way, I suspect if he’s pull his head out of his ass and actually listen to what I have to say he’d find that we actually agree on a lot of this, with the notable exception of the fact that I supported the war and he didn’t. I’m disgusted with the Shrub, lying 'pubbies AND the way the reconstruction of Iraq has been handled since the war, but none of that seems to matter to a lot of the peacenicks, the fact that I think deposing SH was a good thing and that a war was an acceptable way to do so is all they see. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/66 "2003-06-14T16:56:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*I’m disgusted with the Shrub, lying 'pubbies AND the way the reconstruction of Iraq has been handled since the war, but none of that seems to matter to a lot of the peacenicks, the fact that I think deposing SH was a good thing and that a war was an acceptable way to do so is all they see. \*\* You can cry about unfairly your opinions are being treated, but it would be helpful if you actually posted them first. “All we see” is what you post. ---
**Author:** ![Gopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gopher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/67 "2003-06-14T23:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > A large part of the 62 billion dollars the United States spent on the war was spent on hyper-accurate ordinance specifically designed and used to hold down civilian casualties and collateral damage. If we were as evil as many of you in and out of the country think we are, we would have used more ordinance less discriminantly and accomplished our goal sooner. Oh…and killed many more people. Am I being cynical or is all this hyper-accurate ordinance actually made so the US can blow shit up more efficiently? The ordinance that we fling down from the skies isn’t exactly cheap. Not that pinpoint accuracy is a bad thing though of course. ---
**Author:** ![fishcrawford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/85f322/32.png) [@fishcrawford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishcrawford)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/68 "2003-06-15T01:00:30Z")
LMFAO @ BRutus ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/69 "2003-06-16T09:56:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > I guess we’ll find out today, I’m pretty sure RT’s goiing to ribfest and I know I am. At a Dopefest, I’m a believer in checking stuff like this at the door. > [@](#): > > It’s a damn shame that all he seems to want to do lately is throw insults my way, I got on your case when you made a regular habit of calling everyone who disagreed with you on Iraq an “appeaser” or an “appeasement idiot” or part of the “appeasement crowd.” If that’s _me_ insulting _you_, then so be it. Now, in this thread, your very first post in the thread is a general ‘everything you’ve said here is bullshit, you’re waist-deep in bullshit’ remark. Yes, that’s an insult. No, it’s not calling bullshit on a particular remark by that poster, or even a particular _post_. And it can’t even be ascribed to frustration from _trying_ to show this poster the specific error of his ways, and not getting through - _because you hadn’t actually said word one in this post, before jumping in with said insult._ If I’m wrong, explain just _what_ **Ben Hicks** said that you were “calling bullshit” on, and how we were supposed to telepath that that’s what you were doing. > [@](#): > > I suspect if he’s pull his head out of his ass and actually listen to what I have to say he’d find that we actually agree on a lot of this, with the notable exception of the fact that I supported the war and he didn’t. I’m disgusted with the Shrub, lying 'pubbies AND the way the reconstruction of Iraq has been handled since the war, but none of that seems to matter to a lot of the peacenicks, the fact that I think deposing SH was a good thing and that a war was an acceptable way to do so is all they see. **Dave** , you don’t get it, do you? When it comes to something like this, _I don’t care if you agree with me or not._ If you’re gonna just jump into a thread I’m in for no other reason than to aim a content-free insult at someone, I’m going to call you on it, and I don’t care if you’re my best friend in the world, or if you agree with me on everything under the sun. It’s a remarkably jerky thing to do, and I’m remarking on it. Anyhow, I’m out of here. I’m obviously not going to convince _you_ of the error of your ways, and anyone else reading this thread has already figured out what the score is. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/70 "2003-06-16T10:12:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*When it comes to something like this, _I don’t care if you agree with me or not._ If you’re gonna just jump into a thread I’m in for no other reason than to aim a content-free insult at someone, I’m going to call you on it, and I don’t care if you’re my best friend in the world, or if you agree with me on everything under the sun. It’s a remarkably jerky thing to do, and I’m remarking on it. > > \*\* Mr. pot, mr. kettle, how do you do? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/71 "2003-06-16T12:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*The only guilt _this_ liberal is feeling is the guilt that my country is being led by a war-mongering dolt who’s immoral enough to lie to the world in order to justify starting a war. \*\* As perfect and concise an example that can be found that illustrates why I began this thread to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/72 "2003-06-16T14:28:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > I read a lot of right-wing AND a lot of left-wing stuff. I just don’t devote the energy any more trying to get some of these folks to appreciate the magnitude of difference between a mass grave of hundreds of thousands of people (including the children’s burial ground) killed specifically and on purpose and 4000 people killed by accident. Back in 1775, the Proto-United Statsians were fighting for their freedom. In their eyes, they were being governed by an evil oppressor, the English Crown. It’s not unlikely that the Spaniards thought that King George was an evil sum-o-bitch. Say the Spanairds had sent an armada to Maryland or some such, and in the process they killed some 4000 of the natives. Now, the Spaniards, in their court had said that they needed to do this, to protect their interest in the Americas. Sure, the ruler of the people were evil, but primarily, the Spanish crown wanted to protect their territories, which were substantial at the point. Maybe they thought that it didn’t matter if King George or the Americans would win the outcome, what was important was the immediate threat to Spanish interests. fter enetering the conflict, and helping the Americans getting rid of [the rule of] King George, they decided to stay on to form a ‘provisional government’ and help restore ‘good values’ to the natives, to wit, catholicism. The endevour proved to be a lengthy one, costing lots of gold and stirring unrest among many Americans, especially the puritans who hated the Catholic church. Well, say that the Spaniards realized that there really wasn’t an immediate threat to their interests. That neither the people of the new republic, nor King George had any plans on invading Mexico or California, what would the hawks in Madrid say? Well, with despotic rule, they didn’t really need to spin it. But for the sake of argument, let’s say they claimed that the Americans were better off, seeing thay no longer had the oppressive rule of England to struggle under. And say they thought that “Who cares, only 4.000 died and it saved many more in the long run.” Now, how would American history books judge this today, or even a hundred years ago? And **MLS** , I can’t believe what a callous, cynical superficial asshole you are. Who the fuck are you to play God and judge what level of ‘Collateral Dammage’ is OK (I hate that euphemism)? Who the fuck are you to weigh one life against another? The U.S. and it’s people are precisely what many others in the world have looked up to. The movie ‘Saving Private Ryan’ is a case in point. Is it ok to sacrifice ten soldiers to save one? The movie argues a resounding YES! and I think it’s a very important point. For liberty and freedom to rule, you **do not** weigh lives against each other, you treat each person as an individual, with equal worth. That way, there is no room for a bean-counter in love with _realpolitik_ and rethorics who think that it’s ok to kill ten to save a hundred, when there was an option of not killing anyone. You see, **MLS** - the dictatorship in Iraq and how Saddam treated the Iraqis, is not your fucking problem. It’s not something that should concern the U.S. The Iraqis should set themselves free. That’s the only way to get stability in a country in the long run. But spin it anyway you like. The war was not started for humanitarian reasons. The American people will judge GWB for the harm he’s done to America. And American lives lost _is_ harm. Had I been a U.S. citizen, I would have screamed at the top of my lungs. There are American families who have lost their loved ones for no better reason, than GWB wanting to go to war. From an international POV, the American Administration has been proven to be a bully, using its strength to clobber another, but much smaller bully. For me, libertarian (from my countries POV) and humanitarian, what happen was awfull and many of my ideals, originally inspired by the U.S. and its people, has been smeared with a tint of blood. How did ‘land of the free, home of the brave’ turn into a rogue state, a gangster nation, with little or no respect for human life? I find it sad. And I find it even sadder that there are people with as little regard for human life, that they prefer to spin the truth to defend the Bully in the White House. Who think that partisanship is so important, that they in fact betray the very values that made the U.S. great. Shame on you all. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/73 "2003-06-16T14:58:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*They’re gonna get away with it. I can hardly believe my eyes, but its true. They’re gonna get away with it. My beloved country, populated by sheep and led by jackals. \*\* No, **'luci** , the bastards won’t get away with it, but only if people such as you and I and others who care about honesty in our leaders keep on speaking out against their treasonous behaviour. Don’t ever give up! WWWD? (What Would Wellstone Do?) Especially appropriate, I thought, given that you are in Minnesota. He wouldn’t have dispaired, he would have kept on speaking the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/74 "2003-06-16T15:51:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\* > The war was not started for humanitarian reasons. The American people will judge GWB for the harm he’s done to America. And American lives lost _is_ harm. Had I been a U.S. citizen, I would have screamed at the top of my lungs. There are American families who have lost their loved ones for no better reason, than GWB wanting to go to war. > > No, the war was started because of the evidence that Saddam was actively working to undermine and endanger the people of the United States. Yes, I know. You believe the evidence was exaggerated and/or fabricated. I do not. > > The idea of GWB sitting in the Oval Office…fingers steepled…thinking “I know I have absolutely no reason to go to war…but I want to feel powerful. I must show the world my penis is as big as daddys.” > > Stepping back now from leftist fantasy… > > We have always had the power to eliminate threats. But we didn’t use it. And the longer that went on, the bolder our opponents became. Then 9/11 happened. On a side note, don’t look for airplanes coming out of the sky in Stockholm anytime soon, by the way. We will eliminate the threat before they get to you. In case you hadn’t noticed, they hate anyone who isn’t like them and would gladly kill you should they have the chance. > > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\* > From an international POV, the American Administration has been proven to be a bully, using its strength to clobber another, but much smaller bully. > \*\* That’s right. Saddam Hussein and the United States are moral equivilants. Mass murder vs spilling blood to protect Muslims in Bosnia. Religious intolerance vs millions of dollars worth of food and foreign aid. Torture chambers vs positive economic, medical and scientific advancements. To put it simply like an “american cowboy” would…we are the good guys. We beat the Nazis, we beat the Soviet Union and we’ll beat Islamic Fundamentalism. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\* > > Shame on you all. > > \*\* The United States of America has done more good for more people worldwide in the last century alone than the Swedes or anyone else is possibly capable of. Perhaps you would have preferred to be abandoned to the Germans. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/75 "2003-06-16T15:57:07Z")
Great post, **Gaspode**. Count me amongst those that are thoroughly disgusted not just with the WH, but with the unofficial apologists, both here and in RL, who attempt to use every spin known to mankind in order to justify the unjustifiable. Namely, a naked war of aggresion that went against the agreed upon tenets of international law, the UN Security Council and world opinion, was based on skimpy lies and deceit about Iraq’s “inminent threat”, and resulted in the deaths of countless innocents. As per your own example, I’d love to see how all the apologist would react if those same reasons were used to invade the USA. Then again, we all know about those “piles of WMDs” the USA has – quite the deterrent as no doubt most countries have realized in the aftermath of this madness. Hypocrites. And yet, it appears that they’ll get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/76 "2003-06-16T16:04:47Z")
Running out of arguments, are you? The aftermath of this war has put the US on the same level as Iraq in 1991, i.e. invading a country for no good reason. And if the U.S. were still doing the good deed, as in WWII, I wouldn’t have any complaints. You simply cannot excuse what’s being done now, with what was done 60 years ago. That kind of character defense doesn’t even wash in a criminal court of law: “But members of the jury, notwithstanding that my client killed a man, 20 years ago he saved a man’s life, so that should count in his favour.” And, can you give me _any_ reason why it’s morally more justified for you to, in your own words, “beat Islamic Fundamentalism”, than it would be for anyone else to “beat Christian Fundamentalism,” as found in the U.S.? Your denial, spin and efforts to justify, what essentially was, a crime makes you morally repulsive, from my POV. I just need to say that, and I know I’ll never convince you. But someone needs to speak up against the Bullies of this world. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/77 "2003-06-16T16:05:49Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > To put it simply like an “american cowboy” would…we are the good guys.\*\* It is precisely this kind of simple-minded drible that I find disgusting – not to mention the fact that it is also the kind of non-thinking the WH was counting on when launching the whole Iraq charade. Go buy yourself a funkin’ tin Sheriff’s badge at Toys’ R Us, dimwitted asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/78 "2003-06-16T16:41:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\* > And, can you give me _any_ reason why it’s morally more justified for you to, in your own words, “beat Islamic Fundamentalism”, than it would be for anyone else to “beat Christian Fundamentalism,” as found in the U.S.? > > \*\* It is more morally justified because Islamic Fundamentalists have made killing Americans part of thier religion. “Kill infidels in the name of Allah and you will be rewarded in heaven.” They have been killing us dozens at a time for twenty years. Then they went too far. Now they are being hunted down and killed before they can do another “mission for Allah” like 9/11 was. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\* > someone needs to speak up against the Bullies of this world. \*\* Absolutely correct. Let’s see…who have we crossed out on our list? Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, Milosevic, Hussein…you get the point. No, I take that back. You probably don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/79 "2003-06-16T16:46:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > > * * * > > It is precisely this kind of simple-minded drible that I find disgusting – not to mention the fact that it is also the kind of non-thinking the WH was counting on when launching the whole Iraq charade. > > Go buy yourself a funkin’ tin Sheriff’s badge at Toys’ R Us, dimwitted asshole. \*\* Put down Mao and Marx and pick up a dictionary. Look up “Irony”. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591/80 "2003-06-16T16:51:52Z")
I can see why you don’t inhabit Great Debates [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-war-liberal-guilt/181591.md?page=5)