# Post your ghost stories here, and I will debunk them **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674 "2010-06-18T14:53:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/161 "2010-06-18T20:57:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You are approaching this from the assumption that God does not exist. Try doing it the other way. I do this all the time - it’s the first step in a proof by contradiction. Axiom 1: assume that God exists. Axiom 2: assume that if God existed, 90% of people would believe in him. Step 3: from 1 and 2, it is the case that 90% of people believe in God. Step 4: note that no single religion controls more than about a third of humanity, and that’s taking very big-tent views of religion. Step 5: from 4, it is not the case that 90% of people believe in God. Step 6: 3 and 5 contradict - therefore at least one of our premises is wrong. Step 7: since Axiom 2 is incontrovertable (heh), we have just proven that it is not the case that God exists. Obviously in real life nobody believes that 90% crap, but this is the argument form of a proof by contradiction, and arguments of this type like the POE do indeed disprove the existence of God. (For some definitions of God, anyway - the Flying Sphagetti Monster remains undisprovable, and is in fact the most plausible god ever imagined.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/162 "2010-06-18T20:58:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > **Marley** , I think you missed the post where **Darth** said he’d called his brother and his brother admitted it was a prank. Yeah, I was writing a reply to **Damuri Ajashi** at the time. I change my vote to prank in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/163 "2010-06-18T21:03:31Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > No, what the artist brings into the world is the arrangement of pigments on a canvas. Where did it _come from?_ I’m really not following. It doesn’t “come from” anywhere. it’s constructed on the canvas. Before it’s constructed, it doesn’t exist. Actually, the only thing that really makes it exist is if we decide to label it as an art piece. > [@](#): > > Interesting choice of words! They’re your words, not mine. > [@](#): > > Please. I don’t think it would suffice, but yes. Please try. It would be thrilling if you succeeded. It wouldn’t be “me succeeding,” just me parakeeting the current state of neurological sciemce. It will have to wait, though. I won’t have time to research and post until probably tomorrow afternoon. You can just Google “Brain memory,” though. > [@](#): > > Again, I think you’re on very shaky philosophical ground. You’re describing a tool in one breath and defining it out of existence in the next. I didn’t define it out of existence. I defined it as a linguistic tool, which is not to be confused with the thing which it references. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/164 "2010-06-18T21:04:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have studied a lot of Quantum mechanics and it does lead to the belief in an intelligent greater than ours. Not for me it doesn’t. Mostly it makes me wonder if our reality is in fact a computer game. Leading to the question “How should I live my life if this is a computer game?”. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Not one sentence of this is true. I think this is the first serious thing I’ve ever seen you post. Is it the first serious thing you’ve ever posted? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/165 "2010-06-18T21:09:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This isn’t a popularity contest. If 90% of people thought raping infants cured AIDS they would still be wrong. > > God is a factual question, does he exist or not. There is no evidence that he does exist. Without any evidence, why do you believe in him? > > Do you believe in Zombies? There is no evidence for their existence either. God exists for me because I have experience God. Experience is knowledge, and knowledge is what many people have of God, the rest have faith. There are tons of individual personal evidence of God. Because you may not have experienced God yet does not mean He doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/166 "2010-06-18T21:09:52Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > See, this is where I think your otherwise useful debunking goes off the rails. > > This argument, “ghosts don’t exist because they can’t” is dogmatic, and reminds me of someone arguing that the sun goes around the earth because it says so in the Bible. Or, to use a less inflammatory example, prior to the Challenger expedition (the boat, not the shuttle) they knew that the deep ocean had no life. Now we know it has lots of interesting stuff going on, because we looked for the data that shouldn’t be there according to the theory. That said, I think it is unlikely that physics will suddenly allow ghosts, but I wouldn’t have expected quarks, either. > > It makes more sense to me to say 'According to our understanding of physics, biology and physiology, ghost’s shouldn’t exist. Do can we come up with simpler, more parsimonious explanations? Sure, let’s try - how bout hallucinations, caused by stress, which are certainly more common". Occam’s Razor would then suggest the simpler explanation is more likely correct. Can I say that it’s impossible to fly by flapping your arms, is that dogmatic? Can I say that anything at all is physically impossible without being dogmatic? I see no reason to be namby-pamby. If someone says they’ve invented a perpetual motion machine, I know they’re either mistaken or full of it. There is no chance that they’re right. We know that some things are reasonable possibilities and some things aren’t. Ghosts are not. Why pussyfoot around about it? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/167 "2010-06-18T21:10:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sky god? Did I say that he lived in the sky? Perhaps on a cloud? Why not just come out and say you think that believing in God is like believing in Thor or Zeus (sometimes I wonder if 2000 years from now, people will be worshipping Tom Cruise as a prophet of scientology and the Avengers will include Capt. America, The Hulk, Spider Man and Jesus Christ). Believing in God is _exactly_ like believing in Thor or Zeus. You have your god that you believe in due to having been taught to and seeing things that you think God did, and they have their gods they believe in due to having been taught to and seeing things that they thought Thor and Zeus did. There is **literally no difference** between the two of you, except that your god makes less sense than theirs. Seriously, a person could at least _describe_ Thor and Zeus, and their stories at least made plausible fiction, especially since they didn’t know the cause of lightning anyway. Believers in God are so unable to make sense of their diety that they have started taking _pride_ in its ineffability. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why is the onus on me and the other 90% of humanity to prove to the small percentage of athiests that God or the soul exists? Why shouldn’t those with the minority view have to prove their beliefs? It’s not. You may go home and mind your own business without trying to convince anybody of anything, if you like. But if you want us to stop thinking that you believe in fairy tales then yes, the onus is on you to convince us, because why should we just take your unsupported word about something so ridiculous? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/168 "2010-06-18T21:14:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > God exists for me because I have experience God. Experience is knowledge, and knowledge is what many people have of God, the rest have faith. There are tons of individual personal evidence of God. Because you may not have experienced God yet does not mean He doesn’t exist. Same question I asked before: What would we have to show you to prove the nonexistence of your deity? If the answer is that nothing could convince you, than your participation in this thread is based on deception, because you have pre-rejected what you ask us to do. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/169 "2010-06-18T21:14:58Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Not for me it doesn’t. Mostly it makes me wonder if our reality is in fact a computer game. Leading to the question “How should I live my life if this is a computer game?”. Well if life is a computer game, then someone must have designed it, that would be God. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/170 "2010-06-18T21:17:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Same question I asked before: > What would we have to show you to prove the nonexistence of your deity? > > If the answer is that nothing could convince you, than your participation in this thread is based on deception, because you have pre-rejected what you ask us to do. I haven’t asked you to do anything. I don’t care if you believe in God or not. Your logic is irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/171 "2010-06-18T21:18:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I haven’t asked you to do anything. I don’t care if you believe in God or not. Your logic is irrational. Your participation in this thread shows that you _do_ care. Are you going to answer my question? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/172 "2010-06-18T21:20:35Z")
My Q for **DtC** is by what authority are you to judge the experiences of others?? and what method are you using to prove or disprove the supernatural? By using science you are using the study of the natural to define the supernatural, it just doesn’t work, nor does it make any logical sense. Science after all is just a story that is created to define reality that is allowed to change when evidence is presented contrary to the story, can you imagine accepting a story from a person, then presenting evidence to the contrary and he changes his story to match the new evidence and you accept his new story over and over as truth. Science is by it’s very definition is logically a fib, a made up story that will change again. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/173 "2010-06-18T21:24:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My Q for **DtC** is by what authority are you to judge the experiences of others?? I’m not judging the experiences of others. I’m informing them of what are and are not possible explanations for them. > [@](#): > > and what method are you using to prove or disprove the supernatural? The scientific method. > [@](#): > > By using science you are using the study of the natural to define the supernatural. Actually, I’m using science to explain the _natural_. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/174 "2010-06-18T21:25:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My Q for **DtC** is by what authority are you to judge the experiences of others?? and what method are you using to prove or disprove the supernatural? By using science you are using the study of the natural to define the supernatural, it just doesn’t work, nor does it make any logical sense. Science after all is just a story that is created to define reality that is allowed to change when evidence is presented contrary to the story, can you imagine accepting a story from a person, then presenting evidence to the contrary and he changes his story to match the new evidence and you accept his new story over and over as truth. Science is by it’s very definition is logically a fib, a made up story that will change again. Everyone has the authority to judge the experiences of others - though it seems you don’t have the authority to judge science. Though I do give you credit for somehow making science’s willingness to discard error for truth into a _bad_ thing. That’s pretty impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/175 "2010-06-18T21:26:16Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Not for me it doesn’t. Mostly it makes me wonder if our reality is in fact a computer game. Leading to the question “How should I live my life if this is a computer game?”. How many lives do I have and can I nail Lara Croft? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/176 "2010-06-18T21:26:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My Q for **DtC** is by what authority are you to judge the experiences of others?? and what method are you using to prove or disprove the supernatural? By using science you are using the study of the natural to define the supernatural, it just doesn’t work, nor does it make any logical sense. Science after all is just a story that is created to define reality that is allowed to change when evidence is presented contrary to the story, can you imagine accepting a story from a person, then presenting evidence to the contrary and he changes his story to match the new evidence and you accept his new story over and over as truth. Science is by it’s very definition is logically a fib, a made up story that will change again. And on _that_ note… What evidence would be acceptable to the rest of you to show that the supernatural can’t exist? What are you asking for? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/177 "2010-06-18T21:28:29Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > This is a limitation, in a manner of speaking, yes. Of course, until something that does not fit into the materialistic dimension is conclusively demonstrated to exist, it’s not a very big one. > Science doesn’t ‘know’ anything. It’s a process, a method. Stop anthropomorphizing it, by doing so you’re the one at fault here. > Ironically, this statement lets everyone who reads it know that you have indeed not studied quantum mechanics. What I am using here is simple logic. Science says materialism is the only dimension. But Science doesn’t know everything. Therefore science doesn’t know whether materialism is the only dimension or not. Science is contradicted by faulty logic. I could do the same with any organization that believes its way is the only way. Learn to question everything, and every authoriety. Believe in nothing that you haven’t personally experienced, perferable more than once. At the same time don’t dismiss anything, keep the mind open so learning can take place. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/178 "2010-06-18T21:28:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Everyone has the authority to judge the experiences of others - though it seems you don’t have the authority to judge science. He has the “authority” to the same extent anyone does. He just hasn’t demonstrated any ability. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/179 "2010-06-18T21:30:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And on _that_ note… > > What evidence would be acceptable to the rest of you to show that the supernatural can’t exist? What are you asking for? You don’t actually think they’re asking to have their minds changed, do you? **Dio** threw down a gauntlet. While some people have honestly come here looking for alternatives, and thus presented situations that _actually_ seemed to defy explanations, that’s not what the hardline theists with their “people had visions” stories are doing here. They are facing down a hostile challenge expecting to _win_. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674/180 "2010-06-18T21:32:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Everyone has the authority to judge the experiences of others - though it seems you don’t have the authority to judge science. > > Though I do give you credit for somehow making science’s willingness to discard error for truth into a _bad_ thing. That’s pretty impressive. How does one judge the experiences of others, when one doesn’t have a clue as to what those experiences are? Unless, of course, you are God. I think your logic is more than faulty, its irrational. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/post-your-ghost-stories-here-and-i-will-debunk-them/543674.md?page=10)