# Postmen censor BNP **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185 "2004-05-26T15:28:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/21 "2004-05-27T14:53:42Z")
No harm, no foul 🙂 Do we have any… what \*is[\i] the PC term here… postpeople? who can state what the contractual position is here? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/22 "2004-05-27T14:59:06Z")
FWIW, the [CWU site](http://www.cwu.org.uk) is schtum on the matter. Oh, and according to the Jobcentre website, it’s “Post Person” ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/23 "2004-05-27T15:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > If you had a opt out clause in your contract you could. Well, yeah, but the pertinent question is why there’s a clause of such a type in their contracts in the first place. The mail is inefficient enough without further delays caused by having to find postmen who will agree to deliver leaflets. Jehova’s Witnesses won’t deliver information on blood transfusions. Atheists won’t deliver leaflets from churches. Liverpool supporters won’t deliver leaflets from Manchester United. Etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/24 "2004-05-27T15:02:07Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > OK, **One And Only Wanderers** - would you be happy to work on a contract for the BNP? That isn’t the point and you know it. They simply think the British postal workers shouldn’t nursemaid the British population when it comes to what people get in their mail. People should be able to say, and hear, whatever they please. That includes reprehensible ideas, moronic ideas, and completely vapid non-ideas, simply because the alternative (someone taking it upon himself to censor your information input) is simply unthinkable to freedom-loving people. Over in the US, we have a group called the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union). If you’re a common resident of GD or follow American politics at all, you already know where I’m going with this. The ACLU defends [American Nazis when they want to march through Jewish neighborhoods](http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html) and it defends blacks who were targeted by racists. [It defends people who want to use Bible quotes as their personal message in public school yearbooks](http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/05/12/bible.verse.yearbook.ap/) and it defends people who want to remove prayer from public schools. What’s the thread? They defend _individual rights_, as outlined in the American Bill of Rights. (Except, for political reasons, the Second Amendment.) They don’t need to hold their nose when they defend Nazis, because they _aren’t defending Nazis_. They are defending the First Amendment (free speech and free assembly), and they are defending the basic ideals of our shared democratic heritage. The ideas of liberty apply regardless of the ideas that take advantage of them. I understand the vast _legal_ differences between the US and the UK. I don’t, however, think there are vast _philosophical_ differences. I think most Brits are freedom-loving, and I think most of them would be angry at this. I have always held the UK in general in high regard, and I think these hijinks are beneath them both culturally and historically, if not legally. I hope the country comes to its senses. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/25 "2004-05-27T15:05:23Z")
It doesn’t appear to be that the opt-out clause is for postal workers to force their opinions on the public - it’s so that they’re not forced to carry out activities which they themselves find offensive. Surely _that’s_ a defence of their individual rights? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/26 "2004-05-27T15:07:21Z")
What’s stopping a postman from saying that he finds delivering post in itself offensive? The clause is a ridiculous idea. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/27 "2004-05-27T15:17:13Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > That isn’t the point and you know it. They simply think the British postal workers shouldn’t nursemaid the British population when it comes to what people get in their mail. I think you’ve missed the point here. Earlier in the thread it was stated that the postal service does not decline to deliver any mail, it just excuses individuals who find the material offensive - i.e. a postman of Indian descent asked to deliver a leaflet calling for the deportation of ethnic minorities. Of course, that allows for the possibility of all post people refusing to deliver something, and there you have the dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/28 "2004-05-27T15:20:37Z")
Let me see if I understand… Say I’m a postman in the UK. In my pouch I find a bunch of leaflets announcing a political rally for immigrants from WestVirginiastan. Since I think that the UK would be better off if those damn WestViginiastanis would go back where they came from, I can refuse to deliver the pamphlets. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/29 "2004-05-27T15:21:41Z")
> [@+MDI](#): > > What’s stopping a postman from saying that he finds delivering post in itself offensive? > > The clause is a ridiculous idea. No, that’s a ridiculous comment. As already stated, we can’t decide whether the clause makes sense without _seeing the clause_. But from the information we have, it applies to _open leaflets delivered in bulk_, not actual mail. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/30 "2004-05-27T15:24:16Z")
> [@Balle\_M](#): > > Let me see if I understand… > > Say I’m a postman in the UK. In my pouch I find a bunch of leaflets announcing a political rally for immigrants from WestVirginiastan. Since I think that the UK would be better off if those damn WestViginiastanis would go back where they came from, I can refuse to deliver the pamphlets. > > Correct? Something like that - although we can’t be sure without seeing the employment contract. And my guess for the scenario that _all_ the workers refuse to deliver the leaflets is that the managers will have to get in cars and do the job, because you can bet they’ve not negotiated an opt-out, and it’s their responsibility to see that the leaflets get delivered eventually. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/31 "2004-05-27T15:26:02Z")
> [@Balle\_M](#): > > Let me see if I understand… > > Say I’m a postman in the UK. In my pouch I find a bunch of leaflets announcing a political rally for immigrants from WestVirginiastan. Since I think that the UK would be better off if those damn WestViginiastanis would go back where they came from, I can refuse to deliver the pamphlets. > > Correct? It seems so **Balle\_M** , but we’re still awaiting the precise wording of the clause in question so that we can be sure. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/32 "2004-05-27T15:26:32Z")
> [@Balle\_M](#): > > Say I’m a postman in the UK. In my pouch I find a bunch of leaflets announcing a political rally for immigrants from WestVirginiastan. Since I think that the UK would be better off if those damn WestViginiastanis would go back where they came from, I can refuse to deliver the pamphlets. > > Correct? You haven’t made a case for the content being personally offensive, so, no, that is not correct. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/33 "2004-05-27T15:30:44Z")
> [@marky33](#): > > You haven’t made a case for the content being personally offensive, so, no, that is not correct. The case in Wales doesn’t suggest that it’s only immigrant postal workers using the opt-out - it seems to be that they are arguing that it is _offensive_, not _personally offensive_. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/34 "2004-05-27T15:48:43Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The case in Wales doesn’t suggest that it’s only immigrant postal workers using the opt-out - it seems to be that they are arguing that it is _offensive_, not _personally offensive_. In this case non-immigrant workers could still claim it was personally offensive for them to deliver pamphlets calling for the deportation of colleagues, presumably. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/35 "2004-05-27T15:49:07Z")
Meanwhile, elsewhere: Post workers in Somerset are also refusing to deliver the leaflets: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/3746073.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/3746073.stm) And in Scotland, BNP leaflets are being investigated under race-crime legislation: [http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=604552004](http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=604552004) ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/36 "2004-05-27T16:25:13Z")
I got my BNP leaflet the other day. It was the biggest load of offensive, weaselly worded BS you’re likely to see on two sides of an A5 sheet. It was also obviously written from the point of view of English concerns. Although attempts had been made to address it to Scotland I think these amounted to little other than a ‘find & replace’. While I feel for the postmen (I’d certainly hate delivering piles of this crud) I have to say that as long as it’s legal and not a health & safety hazard it’s the Royal Mail’s obligation to deliver it and the content is none of their business. My copy is already in the back of the dustbin lorry and on its way to the dump. I couldn’t even face putting it in the recycle pile. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/37 "2004-05-27T16:28:14Z")
:smack: That was my 2000th post and I wasted it on the BNP. ☚ ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/38 "2004-05-27T16:39:50Z")
I’ve just been looking at their website, and as if we needed more evidence that they live in an alternate universe, I found this beauty: > [@](#): > > In the long run, we wish to end the conflict in Ireland by welcoming Eire as well as Ulster as equal partners in a federation of the nations of the British Isles. Now why didn’t anyone ever think of that before?!?! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/39 "2004-05-27T20:19:36Z")
> [@+MDI](#): > > What’s stopping a postman from saying that he finds delivering post in itself offensive? > > The clause is a ridiculous idea. Based on the quotes from them in the original link, the management are being respectful of what they see as a reasonable invoking of the clause (of course, I’d also like to see the actual wording). However, postmasters are no strangers to the type of silly “sorting room lawyering” you’re indulging in here and any attempt to _abuse_ a rule in this manner is likely to lose their sympathy very quickly. > [@Futile Gesture](#): > > While I feel for the postmen (I’d certainly hate delivering piles of this crud) I have to say that as long as it’s legal and not a health & safety hazard it’s the Royal Mail’s obligation to deliver it and the content is none of their business. The Royal Mail’s legal obligation isn’t at issue at all. The question appears to be whether they can force _individual_ postmen to deliver particular material or whether they should seek alternative means if a postman objects. Alternative means which will usually be as trivial as handing it to the guy on the next shift or two routes being swapped. Again, what seems to have been overlooked in the original story is that the very people who are being inconvenienced - the managers - still expect to be able to deliver the leaflets. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185/40 "2004-05-27T21:01:18Z")
This seems a dangerous precident to allow. What if an area has posties who happen to be BNF members, and refuse to deliver non BNF electoral leaflets. Even BNF (British Nazi Fuckwits) should get a say when they stand for election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postmen-censor-bnp/247185.md?page=3)