# Postponing Election Day? We Laugh But The Government Considers It
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 11, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621 "2004-07-11T23:38:58Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@lemon\_martini2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemon_martini2)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/121 "2004-07-14T10:11:20Z")
Getting back on track,a few points spring up.
So there’s a terror attack on Nov 2 say and the election is delayed a week.What’s the chance that there will be another terror attack then and the pattern continues?
Speaking as a Brit,we have had general elections postponed.The 2001 general election should have taken place in Apr/May,but due to foot and mouth(a friend of your scrapies 😃 it didn’t occur till June.
And here,the PM gets to decide when the election will be.This means that its often when the government finds itself well ahead or the opposition has a major scandal on its hands.Imagine if that was the case in the US 🙂
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/122 "2004-07-14T14:32:42Z")
> [@rjung](#):
>
> Well, _someone_ led the United States to invade Iraq on trumped-up pretenses of an imminent WMD threat, and it sure as hell ain’t John Kerry
Look, I never supported the war, but I don’t know why you insist on propagating the myth that Bush declared Iraq an imminent threat. He didn’t. In fact, he specificially stated that we needed to invade BEFORE they beacame an imminent threat. Just trying to keep the facts straight, **rjung**.
And, fyi, I will not be getting into a debate about whether or not either of the candidates has a conscience.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/123 "2004-07-14T14:43:39Z")
[John Edwards](http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0202/24/le.00.html), on the other hand, did call Iraq an imminent threat (my bolding):
> [@](#):
>
> But I do think that the more serious question going forward is, what are we going to do? I mean, we have three different countries [Iran, Iraq, NK] that, while they all present serious problems for the United States – they’re dictatorships, they’re involved in the development and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction – you know, the most imminent, clear and present threat to our country is not the same from those three countries. \*\*I think Iraq is the most serious and imminent threat to our country. \*\*
>
> And I think they – as a result, we have to, as we go forward and as we develop policies about how we’re going to deal with each of these countries and what action, if any, we’re going to take with respect to them, I think each of them have to be dealt with on their own merits.
>
> And they do, in my judgment, present different threats. **And I think Iraq and Saddam Hussein present the most serious and most imminent threat**.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/124 "2004-07-14T15:38:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Look, I never supported the war, but I don’t know why you insist on propagating the myth that Bush declared Iraq an imminent threat. He didn’t. In fact, he specificially stated that we needed to invade BEFORE they beacame an imminent threat.
That’s absolute nonsense. George W. Bush said on November 20, 2002:
> [@](#):
>
> Today the world is also uniting to answer the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq.
On October 2, 2002, he said:
> [@](#):
>
> On its present course, the Iraqi regime is a threat of unique urgency. . . . it has developed weapons of mass death.
How is an “urgent threat” not an imminent threat? Christ Almighty, man, you’re not going to start debating about what the definition “is” is, are you?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/125 "2004-07-14T16:45:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> That’s absolute nonsense. George W. Bush said on November 20, 2002:
>
> On October 2, 2002, he said:
>
> How is an “urgent threat” not an imminent threat? Christ Almighty, man, you’re not going to start debating about what the definition “is” is, are you?
At the risk of being an imminent threat to this particular dead horse…
In point of fact, “imminent threat” does have a specific meaning in the context of international law, so the use of that exact phrase is significant. If you’re really interested, read the Spinsanity analysis: [Sorting out the “imminent threat” debate](http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20031103.html).
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### Author:  [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/126 "2004-07-14T18:40:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> dance the Watusi
Great! I’ve always wondered what the hell the Watusi was.
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> naked
Oh. Ummm…I think I’m going to be out of town that day. Sorry.
😃
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/127 "2004-07-14T20:58:02Z")
This is some funny stuff here. More examples of what I have mentioned before - it is easy debating liberals in a lot of cases - if one denies it, another will be along shortly to demonstrate it.
> [@gobear](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Given the level of paranoia shown in this thread, I can almost guarantee that any terrorist attack will produce a flood of posts accusing Bush of engineering it for political advantage.
>
> As noted, it’s a comment on his characters that such a charge can be so easily believed.
Not really - more a comment on the kinds of bizarre stuff the lefties will swallow if it is a bash at Bush. As I said earlier, some people honestly believed Clinton was having people killed. Same thing here.
> [@gobear](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > 9/11 happened, and Bush and the country weren’t prepared for it. Therefore, Bush is a bad President.
>
> Actually, that’s one charge I don’t think I’ve seen anybody make about Bush, so I can only conclude that you are mistaken.
Haven’t been reading the SDMB for the last year or so, have you? What about all that stuff about how Bush didn’t follow up on the Gore-Clinton “plan” to deal with terrorism?
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Publicly stating interest in delaying the elections is unprecedented in our history.
9/11 was unprecedented. And, as I mentioned earlier, saying that Bush is interested in delaying the elections is a serious misstatement of the topic. Bush is interested in how to deal with a terrorist attack serious enough to make it necessary to delay elections. To repeat - fire insurance is not the same thing as conspiracy to commit arson.
> [@DMC](#):
>
> What fascist takeover plot?
The one **BrainGlutton** is afraid of:
> [@](#):
>
> Shodan, I really, sincerely believe that Bush, Cheney and Co. are morally capable of committing an act of high treason, up to and including the arranging or staging of a “terrorist” attack on American soil, in order to hold on to power. I am not suggesting they have done anything like this, yet, nor that they are plotting it. But I wouldn’t put it past them for a minute. Would you? I’m not really worried, because I don’t believe for a moment they could pull it off without getting caught.
> [@bughunter](#):
>
> > [@Shodan](#):
> >
> > I don’t doubt you are sincere.
>
> Christ, how less sincere can you be?
I am entirely sincere. I think the notion that Bush might be plotting to stage terrorist attacks in order to hang on to power is a nutsoid notion. I also think the notion that JFK was assasinated by a cabal of CIA/FBI/LBJ/Mafia/Illuminati members is a nutsoid notion, and for the same reason.
And I think the reason it is being seriously discussed by Dopers is that this is too much a hothouse for the extreme Left. You guys don’t realize how paranoid you sound to someone who doesn’t masturbate over the latest issue of Mother Jones.
> [@bughunter](#):
>
> For a little fun, let’s see just how many logical fallacies and personal attacks Shodan has packed into one post, because I think he may be close to establishing a record for the thread.
> Quote:
> crack pot notion
>
> Ad Hominem, insinuating only a crackpot could make this claim,
Well, if the shoe fits…
> [@bughunter](#):
>
> Quote:
> secret thrill
>
> strawman, inventing a motive,
Same. I have seen the development of closed-circle thinking. This strikes me as an example of it.
It is very similar to creationist discussions where no one disagrees. Part of the fun is the feeling that one is privy to secrets denied to the world at large.
> [@bughunter](#):
>
> Quote:
> some of you are taking it waaaaaay too seriously
>
> strawman, overstating our earnestness in making a claim, and then dismissing it,
Overstating? If you think you don’t mean it, then don’t say it. **BrainGlutton** and other types like **Reeder** are, as far as I can tell, very earnest in their statements to the effect that Bush is the anti-Christ.
And, for the record, I have stated elsewhere that I think they are entirely sincere. Let’s not get into accusations of trolling here.
> [@bughunter](#):
>
> and the best one yet:
> Quote:
> Groupthink
>
> Accusing the opponent of one’s own fault.
You are accusing **me** of groupthink? That’s rich. In this thread, it’s basically me and **John Mace** against the True Believers of the SDMB.
> [@bughunter](#):
>
> I don’t know what this is even called.
Freud called it [projection.](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/projection) As in “you only think that because you are agreeing with the thousands and thousands of conservatives on the SDMB”. 😉
Regards,
Shodan
---
### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/128 "2004-07-14T21:20:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Look, I never supported the war, but I don’t know why you insist on propagating the myth that Bush declared Iraq an imminent threat. He didn’t. In fact, he specificially stated that we needed to invade BEFORE they beacame an imminent threat.
Great, that just makes things ten times worse – “He isn’t a threat now, but he _might be one someday,_ so I gotta pop him first!” :eek:
So shall we agree that George W. Bush is, indeed, an immoral bastard, since he led the invasion of a country that (by your own admission) posed **no imminent threat** to the United States?
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### Author:  [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/129 "2004-07-14T21:51:55Z")
> [@manhattan](#):
>
> What little evidence we have is that foreign terrorists like high-impact target which are famous overseas. Places like the World Trade Center, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Golden Gate Bridge. Places which are inhabited by, well, Democrats.
Which is why . . . New York City has a Republican mayor, New York state has a Republican governor, and California has a Republican governor?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/130 "2004-07-14T21:57:09Z")
> [@rjung](#):
>
> So shall we agree that George W. Bush is, indeed, an immoral bastard, since he led the invasion of a country that (by your own admission) posed **no imminent threat** to the United States?
As far as I know, “W” is the legitimate son of George and Babs, so I think the “bastard” part is clearly false. As for immoral, well we’ve already hashed that over in [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=230372)
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### Author:  [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/131 "2004-07-14T22:14:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> Terrorist Group ‘A’ on election day destroy polling places where the voters will most likely vote for canidate ‘A’, the results of the votes is these places are lost and not counted.
Do you know how logistically impossible this is? How many hundreds of polling places there are in even one medium-size state? How small a percentage of the vote is done at any one polling place?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/132 "2004-07-14T22:49:24Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan]
You guys don’t realize how paranoid you sound to someone who doesn’t masturbate over the latest issue of Mother Jones.
[QUOTE]
My preference is for _The Nation_ and _In These Times_ – but hey, that Mother Jones is one hot babe! 😃
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> **BrainGlutton** and other types like **Reeder** are, as far as I can tell, very earnest in their statements to the effect that Bush is the anti-Christ.
Antichrist? I **wish!**
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/133 "2004-07-14T22:55:28Z")
> [@Walloon](#):
>
> Do you know how logistically impossible this is? How many hundreds of polling places there are in even one medium-size state? How small a percentage of the vote is done at any one polling place?
Granted, but they wouldn’t need to hit very many of them. Maybe three attacks across the nation starting early and continuing until later would keep a lot of folk at home and encourage the election to be delayed.
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### Author:  [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/134 "2004-07-14T23:25:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> This is some funny stuff here. More examples of what I have mentioned before - it is easy debating liberals in a lot of cases - if one denies it, another will be along shortly to demonstrate it.
Well, first, you only find it easy because you aren’t debating, you’re just heaping logical fallacies after personal attack, and then patting yourself on the back for how witty you are.
Secondly, and allowing you to call it a “debate” just for the sake of discussion, you aren’t “debating” liberals here. Just because someone disagrees with your fantacism doesn’t make them “liberal.”
But then, I’m used to knee-jerk reactions from fanatics, both on the left and the right.
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### Author:  [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/135 "2004-07-15T00:18:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> The one **BrainGlutton** is afraid of:
I don’t see any evidence of a fascist plot in his statement. He’s merely stating that he finds them morally capable of doing just about anything to get reelected. I don’t believe he mentioned anything that would put Bush in the White House for more than another 4 years. Wouldn’t that be required for this plot to be considered fascist in nature? As I pointed out, we’ve seen over and over again that politicians are more than willing to bend the hell out of the law to stay in power (redistricting, for example). The Bush administration did not create this problem, but they certainly haven’t shown us any reason to believe they won’t bend the rules to the fullest, and in fact have shown a tendency to bend all sorts of laws that get in their way.
> [@](#):
>
> And I think the reason it is being seriously discussed by Dopers is that this is too much a hothouse for the extreme Left. You guys don’t realize how paranoid you sound to someone who doesn’t masturbate over the latest issue of Mother Jones.
And you’re cherry picking what you debate, or just making it up as you go. Plenty of good reasons have been given to back up the fear of this being abused, but you’ve ignored them in favor of easily brushed off strawmen, and launching group-wide ad hominem attacks.
You used to actually debate, and I believe you still do in some other threads. Is Bush so indefensible that you gave up when it comes to him and his administration?
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/136 "2004-07-15T03:55:44Z")
> [@DMC](#):
>
> I don’t see any evidence of a fascist plot in his statement. He’s merely stating that he finds them morally capable of doing just about anything to get reelected. I don’t believe he mentioned anything that would put Bush in the White House for more than another 4 years. Wouldn’t that be required for this plot to be considered fascist in nature?
Correct. In fact, to be fascist in nature, it would require even more than subverting the Constitution and establishing a one-party dictatorship. Much more. Some GD posters have accused Bush and the neocons of being “fascists,” but I hate seeing political terminology used so imprecisely. We have enough trouble figuring out what “liberal” and “conservative” are supposed to mean, without needlessly muddying the waters about a (relatively) precise term such as “fascism.” Fascism does not simply mean authoritarianism, militarism, or dictatorship, it means a particular kind of political ideology that existed nowhere before the 20th Century. From the Encarta:
> [@](#):
>
> **Fascism,** modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence.
>
> \
>
> Scholars disagree over how to define the basic elements of fascism. Marxist historians and political scientists . . . view fascism as a form of politics that is cynically adopted by governments to support capitalism and to prevent a socialist revolution. These scholars have applied the label of fascism to many authoritarian regimes that came to power between World War I and World War II, such as those in Portugal, Austria, Poland, and Japan. Marxist scholars also label as fascist some authoritarian governments that emerged after World War II, including regimes in Argentina, Chile, Greece, and South Africa.
>
> Some non-Marxist scholars have dismissed fascism as a form of authoritarianism that is reactionary, responding to political and social developments but without any objective beyond the exercise of power. Some of these scholars view fascism as a crude, barbaric form of nihilism, asserting that it lacks any coherent ideals or ideology. Many other historians and political scientists agree that fascism has a set of basic traits—a fascist minimum—but tend to disagree over what to include in the definition. Scholars disagree, for example, over issues such as whether the concept of fascism includes Nazi Germany and the Vichy regime (the French government set up in southern France in 1940 after the Nazis had occupied the rest of the country).
>
> Beginning in the 1970s, some historians and political scientists began to develop a broader definition of fascism, and by the 1990s many scholars had embraced this approach. This new approach emphasizes the ways in which fascist movements attempt revolutionary change and their central focus on popularizing myths of national or ethnic renewal. Seen from this perspective, all forms of fascism have three common features: anticonservatism, a myth of ethnic or national renewal, and a conception of a nation in crisis.
>
> © 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
I think the last definition mentioned here is the best. Now, whatever Bush and Co. are aiming at, it ain’t that. Vauge, predictable rhetoric about making America “stronger” is not the same as a vivid conception of thoroughgoing national cultural renewal. Fascism is sometimes misidentified as an “ultraconservative” ideology, but it is actually revolutionary and anticonservative (as well as antiliberal). In short, I just don’t credit Bush with enough imagination to be a fascist.
Returning to the topic at hand: What concerns me is not that the Bushies might actually **stage** a fake terrorist attack, but that, having advance intelligence of a real one, they might intentionally stand down our defenses and allow it to succeed. Which would be just as treasonous. Now, I don’t buy the conspiracy theories asserting that that was what actually happened on 9/11/01, because I’ve never seen any credible evidence presented for that; but I wouldn’t put it past the bastards to try it in the future, now that they’ve learned how much political capital they can make be made out of terrorism.
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/137 "2004-07-15T06:05:29Z")
**[Karzai Says Terrorism Shouldn’t Delay Afghan Elections](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2004/n06292004_200406291.html)**
[rabble rousing]
Are Afghanis more desirous of freedom than Americans?
Aren’t Americans as brave as the Afghanis?
[/rabble rousing]
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/138 "2004-07-15T06:11:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> …now that they’ve learned how much political capital they can make be made out of terrorism.
Don’t forget the lessons they’ve given in how little plausibility must spread on denials to render them palatable enough to be sold and swallowed w/o chewing.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/139 "2004-07-15T06:38:04Z")
> [@SimonX](#):
>
> **[Karzai Says Terrorism Shouldn’t Delay Afghan Elections](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2004/n06292004_200406291.html)**
>
> [rabble rousing]
> Are Afghanis more desirous of freedom than Americans?
> Aren’t Americans as brave as the Afghanis?
> [/rabble rousing]
Bad example. I just heard on the radio that they have decided to reschedule the presidential election, from September to October, and parliamentary elections won’t be held until next February, if then.
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/postponing-election-day-we-laugh-but-the-government-considers-it/254621/140 "2004-07-15T13:51:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Bad example. I just heard on the radio that they have decided to reschedule the presidential election, from September to October, and parliamentary elections won’t be held until next February, if then.
How sad.
Maybe it’s the thought that counts.
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