# pot...kettle...black **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2004, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971 "2004-01-25T08:50:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/1 "2004-01-25T08:50:04Z")
Would someone please explain this saying to me? I’m not clever enough to understand it. Thanks in advance. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![boofy\_bloke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@boofy\_bloke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofy_bloke)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/2 "2004-01-25T09:16:41Z")
It means that someone is being hypocritical. In the olden days when cooking was done over an open fire, the kettle AND the pot were both black from the soot. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/3 "2004-01-25T09:24:37Z")
In olden times, you had to build a wood fire—originally in a fireplace, later in a woodburning stove—if you wanted to cook anything. Pots and kettles heated atop such fires became all sooty. In earlier English, before people became sensitized to racism in language, “black” was a metaphor for disgrace. So the pot accuses the kettle of being all disgraced with soot, oblivious to the fact that it’s in the exact same condition. _Tu quoque_ is a fallacy in logic. “So what if I’m a crook, you’re a bigger one.” That does not constitute a valid defense. Jesus made a joke along these lines, the bit about criticizing your neighbor for having a teeny speck of dust in his eye, ignoring the fact that you have a huge piece of wood (a “beam”) in your own eye. _Beam_ comes from the Old English word for ‘tree’, cognate with German _Baum_ and Dutch _boom_. (The boom on a ship, which holds a sail, comes from this Dutch word, because like the beam that holds up a ceiling, it’s made from a tree trunk.) Jesus was supposed to have been a carpenter, and this bit of humor sounds like he thought of it while planing some boards. ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/4 "2004-01-25T11:22:21Z")
Much thanks to both of you! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/5 "2004-01-25T11:29:30Z")
I just wanted to add that the full phrase is “the pot calling the kettle black”. “Pot… kettle… black” is just a condensed version. (And my new favourite “Mr Kettle? Mr Pot on line 2” is a stylisation.) ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/6 "2004-01-25T13:05:22Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > In earlier English, before people became sensitized to racism in language, “black” was a metaphor for disgrace. ‘Black’ as a metaphor for disgrace had absolutely no racist overtones as it had absolutely no racial basis. It’s only our hyper-sensitive political correctness that has drawn a connection between the colour “black” as a metaphor for disgrace and “black” as a not wholly accurate description for a not wholly valid concept of a race, when there simply is no connection there. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/7 "2004-01-25T13:14:42Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > ‘Black’ as a metaphor for disgrace had absolutely no racist overtones as it had absolutely no racial basis. > > It’s only our hyper-sensitive political correctness that has drawn a connection between the colour “black” as a metaphor for disgrace and “black” as a not wholly accurate description for a not wholly valid concept of a race, when there simply is no connection there. Someone should have informed Enid Blyton about that (“His evil black face stared at them out of the tree”). And Shakespeare… (Iago: “An old black ram is tupping your white ewe”; “When devils will the blackest sins put on…”). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/8 "2004-01-25T15:38:34Z")
> [@](#): > > “When devils will the blackest sins put on…” Actually, that one has no racist overtones that I can see. In this case, I think “black” is used as “evil” or “wicked” and has no “racial” root. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/9 "2004-01-25T18:43:27Z")
Until I read this thread I had always assumed that the pot and kettle in the proverb were made of cast iron rather than being blackened from the fire. The _Dictionary of Proverbs_ by Linda and Roger Flavell, pub. Kyle Cathie Ltd. 1996, has this entry (which I’ve shortened): > [@](#): > > … The early form of this proverb in the seventeenth century was _The pot calls the kettle burnt-arse_ (John Clarke, PAROEMIOLOGIA, 1639)… > > The proverb already existed in various forms in Spain and was possibly introduced into English by the publication of DON QUIXOTE (1615) where we find: _The frying pan said to the kettle, get away black-eye._ This version is very close to an Arabic proverb, reminding us that Arab dominion over much of Spain from AD 711 to 1492 left a linguistic heritage behind it. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/10 "2004-01-25T23:26:32Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > Actually, that one has no racist overtones that I can see. In this case, I think “black” is used as “evil” or “wicked” and has no “racial” root. Except in the context of _Othello_, where presumaby (IMO) the audience is attuned to racial issues, even back in the 17thC. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/11 "2004-01-25T23:28:44Z")
> [@](#): > > The pot calls the kettle burnt-arse BTW, I am so using this version from now on! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![boofy\_bloke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@boofy\_bloke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofy_bloke)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/12 "2004-01-26T01:33:55Z")
There’s also \Hello Pot? This is the kettle.\. ---
**Author:** ![LorieSmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@LorieSmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LorieSmurf)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/13 "2004-01-26T11:00:42Z")
> [@boofy\_bloke](#): > > There’s also \Hello Pot? This is the kettle.\. Yeah, I saw this on a Friends episode. Phoebe did that and said “Hello Pot? This is Kettle. YOU’RE BLACK!” ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/14 "2004-01-26T11:20:01Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > (And my new favourite “Mr Kettle? Mr Pot on line 2” is a stylisation.) He’s busy. Mr Kettle will call Mr Pot back ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/15 "2004-01-26T15:24:57Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Someone should have informed Enid Blyton about that (“His evil black face stared at them out of the tree”). And Shakespeare… (Iago: “An old black ram is tupping your white ewe”; “When devils will the blackest sins put on…”). Well obviously in those cases the connotation is deliberately there. But using the word ‘black’ in a phrase that does not have racist/racial overtones does not automatrically introduce them either. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pot-kettle-black/225971/16 "2004-01-26T21:55:33Z")
Well fair enough, though I do think in days gone by there was an occasionally expressed attitude that black = evil .: black people = evil people.