# POTUS 2008: the character question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2007, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552 "2007-09-09T09:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/1 "2007-09-09T09:34:42Z")
How do the candidates stand up in terms of character? For instance, Guiliani has had two divorces, one nasty, Fred Thompson has a bit of a reputation as a womaniser. Some candidates have flip-flopped over policy (the precise policy itself being irrelevant for this thread). Clinton gained a lot by standing by her husband, but has things like Whitewater. Edwards is seen as a vacuous lawyer. And so on. So tell me of the candidates characters. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/2 "2007-09-09T09:44:44Z")
Whitewater. Ummm, lessee, the special prosecutor went after that with everything he had and came up with a blowjob. It’s hard to say someone got special consideration when they lost money on an investment. I’d say that Hillary and Obama have the “best” character. The rest have the baggage that most politcos have. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/3 "2007-09-09T11:17:53Z")
Does it matter? Some nasty people have been good presidents and some nice people have been lousy presidents. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/4 "2007-09-09T11:56:51Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Some candidates have flip-flopped over policy (the precise policy itself being irrelevant for this thread). [/QUOTE] Do you consider that a flaw? It was certainly hurled as an accusation at John Kerry in the last election, but I never heard any explanation of why it’s such a bad thing. To the contrary, I find George Bush’s utter refusal to reconsider his ideas and actions, to learn from his mistakes, to be one of his greatest flaws. “I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.” - Abraham Lincoln ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/5 "2007-09-09T13:11:06Z")
Does anything bad to say about Obama’s character? He is attacked for his inexperience, but not – as far as I know – for his character. The one adverse thing I’ve seen about him is that he previously used drugs, something I learned by his own admission in his first book. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/6 "2007-09-09T13:18:09Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Edwards is seen as a vacuous lawyer. [/QUOTE] “Vacuous”? By whom is he seen that way? And is being a lawyer a character flaw now? Because when you look at a list of past presidents, an awful lot of them have “lawyer” on their resume. One would think that a familiarity with the law and its practical applications would be helpful, not a hindrance, and certainly not a “character flaw.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/7 "2007-09-09T13:18:41Z")
[QUOTE=Robot Arm] Do you consider that a flaw? It was certainly hurled as an accusation at John Kerry in the last election, but I never heard any explanation of why it’s such a bad thing. To the contrary, I find George Bush’s utter refusal to reconsider his ideas and actions, to learn from his mistakes, to be one of his greatest flaws. [/QUOTE] The implication in the “flip-flopper” allegation is not that the candidate changed his mind as a result of a sober reconsideration of the merits of an issue, but that he saw a poll that indicated the growing popularity of X, and began adopting support for X in an effort to win the election. ---
**Author:** ![essell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/34f0e0/32.png) [@essell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/essell)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/8 "2007-09-09T13:30:38Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] The implication in the “flip-flopper” allegation is not that the candidate changed his mind as a result of a sober reconsideration of the merits of an issue, but that he saw a poll that indicated the growing popularity of X, and began adopting support for X in an effort to win the election. [/QUOTE] And the danger for those who do the former is they get accused of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/9 "2007-09-09T13:39:00Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] The implication in the “flip-flopper” allegation is not that the candidate changed his mind as a result of a sober reconsideration of the merits of an issue, but that he saw a poll that indicated the growing popularity of X, and began adopting support for X in an effort to win the election. [/QUOTE] Doing what your constituents want is a character flaw? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/10 "2007-09-09T13:45:32Z")
[QUOTE=Robot Arm] Doing what your constituents want is a character flaw? [/QUOTE] It can be. Sometimes you have to do what is right, even when it might cost you politically. _See_ Johnson, Lyndon, and the 1964 Civil Rights Act. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/11 "2007-09-09T18:51:05Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Does it matter? Some nasty people have been good presidents and some nice people have been lousy presidents. [/QUOTE] It certainly can matter (especially if you define “character” right). Arguably, what kept Nixon from being a good president and brought about his downfall was his character flaws. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/12 "2007-09-09T18:59:18Z")
I dispute the OP’s implicit assumption of the primary **importance** of character. The content of a candidate’s politics, and his/her competency, are much more important considerations, IMO. It is better to be well governed by sinners than misgoverned by saints. That said, I think that “socialist garden gnome” [Dennis Kucinich](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_kucinich) leads the pack in character, based on his history. He’s had a couple of failed marriages, but you can’t point to anything really disgraceful in his life. More importantly, you can’t point to anything hypocritical. He has never wavered from living by his stated principles. He has plain fundamental honesty. He has a basic bedrock integrity. He has a snowball’s chance in Hell of winning. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/13 "2007-09-09T19:54:55Z")
I’d actually like to apologise for a particularly poor OP. I seemed to be concentrating on the negative when I’m more interested in the positive. E.g. Guiliani’s leadership after 9/11, Kerry’s personal courage, etc. > [@Brainglutton](#): > > I dispute the OP’s implicit assumption of the primary importance of character. Fair enough but that’s a seperate subject. We had a huge thread about it in the Pit which seems to have been archived. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/14 "2007-09-09T20:02:51Z")
Obama has done weed and cocaine. He has a longstanding friendship with a gentleman named Tony Rezko who is under investigation for demanding kickbacks. Bout it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/15 "2007-09-09T20:40:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] “socialist garden gnome” [Dennis Kucinich](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_kucinich) [/QUOTE] [irrelevant aside] Whenever I see him, I think, “Don’t crush that dwarf, hand me the pliers.” [😃](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Crush_That_Dwarf,_Hand_Me_the_Pliers) [/irrelevant aside] ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/16 "2007-09-09T22:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] It certainly can matter (especially if you define “character” right). Arguably, what kept Nixon from being a good president and brought about his downfall was his character flaws. [/QUOTE] But Jimmy Carter by all accounts is a nice guy and his presidency was somewhat of a failure. Linking “character” with Presidential skills is a bit too random (not to mention wildly subjective) to be useful. If “character” includes marital fidelity, does that mean retroactively condemning FDR, Eisenhower and Clinton, while embracing the Bushes? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/17 "2007-09-09T22:35:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] But Jimmy Carter by all accounts is a nice guy and his presidency was somewhat of a failure. Linking “character” with Presidential skills is a bit too random (not to mention wildly subjective) to be useful. If “character” includes marital fidelity, does that mean retroactively condemning FDR, Eisenhower and Clinton, while embracing the Bushes? [/QUOTE] I recall an editorial cartoon from the 1992 election: [picture of Thomas Jefferson] He fooled around. [picture of FDR] He fooled around. [picture of JFK] He fooled around. [picture of Nixon] **He** was a perfect angel! ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/18 "2007-09-09T22:56:32Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Obama has done weed and cocaine. He has a longstanding friendship with a gentleman named Tony Rezko who is under investigation for demanding kickbacks. Bout it. [/QUOTE] Bout it? Try replacing “under investigation” with “indicted”, and “friendship with a gentleman” with “engaged in shady real estate deal with”. Do we not consider facts here anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/19 "2007-09-09T23:01:37Z")
I’d say of all the candidates Hillary has the worst character flaws. Of the well-known candidates I’d say Obama has the fewest character flaws. I don’t have a problem so much with divorces, cheating on your spouse, using drugs as a young person and et cetera when it comes to a President. Hillary has had several dealings with people who are on the wrong side of the law. During her 2000 New York Senate election one of her fund raisers was a convicted felon who underreported contributions she gained at a dinner by several hundred thousand dollars–the Clinton campaign ended up having to pay a $35,000 fine for this. And of course the Hsu-controversy has been prominent recently, so it shows she has a pattern of using crooks to make money for her campaigns. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552/20 "2007-09-09T23:27:06Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Bout it? Try replacing “under investigation” with “indicted”, and “friendship with a gentleman” with “engaged in shady real estate deal with”. [/QUOTE] [Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Rezko) > [@](#): > > In November, 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his involvement in a real estate deal to which Rezko was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws were broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and stated “I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it.”[1] No wrongdoing on Obama’s part there. > [@](#): > > In April, 2007 Barack Obama was again connected to Rezko, when records were published in the Chicago Suntimes detailing the relationship between Obama, the law firm which employed him and Rezko’s Rezmar Corp, a company which made government-subsidized, low-income housing projects, in a series of troubled real estate developments pursued by Rezko’s Rezmar Corp, which brought in more than $43 million in government funding for these projects, many of which are currently in distress financially and disrepair. [7] No, not very damning – Obama just happened to work for that firm. No proof he was involved in anything shady. The **next** bit, however, might be grounds for concern: > [@](#): > > In June, 2007 the Chicago Sun-Times published a story about Obama writing letters to city and state officials on behalf of Rezko, so Rezko could receive more than $14 million in taxpayer funds to develop senior citizen housing, including $885,000 in development fees for Rezko and partner Allison Davis, Obama’s former boss. Before the Sun-Times revealed Obama’s letters in support of Rezko, Sen. Obama had insisted to the Tribune , “I’ve never done any favors for him.” [8][9] > > Also in June 2007, The Chicago Sun-Times discovered that Obama had collected at least $168,308 from Rezko over Obama’s 12 years in politics, approximately triple the best estimate that Obama had provided of Rezko’s donations. Obama had told the Sun-Times that Rezko raised “between $50,000 and $60,000” during Obama’s political career.[10] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-2008-the-character-question/418552.md?page=2)