# POTUS dies; when does VP become President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608 "2006-01-25T21:07:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/1 "2006-01-25T21:07:06Z")
If the President of the US dies, at what point does the Veep become President? [ul] [li]At the moment of the President’s death?[/li][li]Upon being notified of the President’s death?[/li][li]Upon taking the oath of office?[/li][li]At some other time between the death and the oath?[/li][/ul] Consider the this scenario. The VP is sitting as President of the Senate. During a rollcall vote he is quietly informed that the President has died. He does not relate this information to anyone on the Senate floor. The vote is tied. Can the VP then vote to break the tie, or would the President’s death invalidate his vote? Bonus points if you can name the controversial early 60s film in which this scenario occurs. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/2 "2006-01-25T21:13:32Z")
> [@zagloba](#): > > Bonus points if you can name the controversial early 60s film in which this scenario occurs. That would be _Advise and Consent_, in an incident that is not to be found in the source book. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/3 "2006-01-25T21:21:08Z")
According to our AP Government teacher, the VP becomes President instantly. This isn’t contradicted by the Constitution, which just says “shall become” with no qualifiers. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/4 "2006-01-25T21:39:48Z")
The [twenty-fifth amendment](http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html#25) reads > [@](#): > > In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President. Since it wasn’t ratified until 1967, it might not have applied to a film made in 1962. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/5 "2006-01-25T21:53:58Z")
Actually, it is covered in Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 6. This is instantaneous. However, according to the United States Code Annotated, Title 3, Sec. 19, if the President and Vice-President are dead, resign are incapacitated, etc., the Speaker of the House does **not** get to be acting President until he resigns as Speaker, indicating a lapse of time. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/6 "2006-01-25T21:57:36Z")
He **becomes** President at the moment of death of the incumbent President. He may not excercise the powers of the Presidency until after he takes the oath of office. Picky detail but important. Side note: Where Drury/movie scriptwriter got that from, in fact, is the fact that Harry Truman was actually in the chair presiding over the Senate at the moment he legally became President. ---
**Author:** ![StewieGriffin420](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@StewieGriffin420](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StewieGriffin420)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/7 "2006-01-25T22:30:28Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > He **becomes** He may not excercise the powers of the Presidency until after he takes the oath of office. Sure he could. the oath is just a formality. VP could exercise the powers without taking the oath at all, such as when the president is temporarily incapacitated. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/8 "2006-01-25T22:38:39Z")
> [@StewieGriffin420](#): > > VP could exercise the powers without taking the oath at all, such as when the president is temporarily incapacitated. That requires a written statement from the cabinet, though, at least post 1967. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/9 "2006-01-25T23:52:48Z")
> [@StewieGriffin420](#): > > Sure he could. the oath is just a formality. VP could exercise the powers without taking the oath at all, such as when the president is temporarily incapacitated. Read the flippin’ Constitution, Stewie. (You’re starting to sound like your father! ;)) > [@](#): > > Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:–“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” (Art II, Sec. 1, last paragraph) When the V.P. is serving as acting president, he’s doing so under a specified process outlined in Article XXV, and presumably his own oath as vice president governs his conduct during a temporary stint as acting president. But when the president dies, resigns, or is convicted on impeachment, the vice president **becomes** president. And the above provision of the Constitution is binding, as the supreme law of the land. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/10 "2006-01-26T00:53:59Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Read the flippin’ Constitution, Stewie. (You’re starting to sound like your father! ;)) > > When the V.P. is serving as acting president, he’s doing so under a specified process outlined in Article XXV Take yer own advice. Thats the 25th _Amendment_. The Constitution has only seven articles. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/11 "2006-01-26T02:13:45Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Read the flippin’ Constitution, Stewie. (You’re starting to sound like your father! ;)) > > When the V.P. is serving as acting president, he’s doing so under a specified process outlined in Article XXV, and presumably his own oath as vice president governs his conduct during a temporary stint as acting president. > > But when the president dies, resigns, or is convicted on impeachment, the vice president **becomes** president. And the above provision of the Constitution is binding, as the supreme law of the land. That’s why Lyndon Johnson took the oath on Air Force One within hours of Kennedy’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/12 "2006-01-26T03:54:41Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Take yer own advice. Thats the 25th _Amendment_. The Constitution has only seven articles. > > 🙂 ::: franctically looks for cover ::: It’s the 25th **Article of Amendment** , according to the official title! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/13 "2006-01-26T08:35:33Z")
Full points to **Otto** – that was quick. The constitutional question doesn’t come up in the film, because the VP declines to cast the tiebreaking vote. However, he is asked by the majority leader why he didn’t, implying that he could have. From the replies so far, it appears that its still unclear whether the VP can vote in this scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/14 "2006-01-26T10:54:27Z")
I’d be surprised if anyone made a fuss if he did cast the tiebreaking vote. After modifications to the constitution, the President gets to appoint a new Vice President anytime that office is vacant, which it obviously would be in the case of a sitting Vice President assuming the office of President due to the President exiting office early (be it through death, impeachment, etc.) And that new appointed vice president would obviously vote the same way on the tie-breaker that the former VP would, so I think the politicos in Congress would probably consider it a moot point. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/15 "2006-01-26T11:05:17Z")
That appointment is subject to confirmation, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/16 "2006-01-26T14:44:00Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I’d be surprised if anyone made a fuss if he did cast the tiebreaking vote. > > After modifications to the constitution, the President gets to appoint a new Vice President anytime that office is vacant, which it obviously would be in the case of a sitting Vice President assuming the office of President due to the President exiting office early (be it through death, impeachment, etc.) > > And that new appointed vice president would obviously vote the same way on the tie-breaker that the former VP would, so I think the politicos in Congress would probably consider it a moot point. Wanna bet?! ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/17 "2006-01-26T16:36:26Z")
> [@zagloba](#): > > From the replies so far, it appears that its still unclear whether the VP can vote in this scenario. It’s a novel question. Most discussion of this issue revolves around when the person can assume the powers of the presidency, not around when they lose the (very limited) powers of the vice presidency. Naturally, we won’t get a definitive answer except in the _extremely_ unlikely event that this happens and gets litigated. Courts are reluctant to interfere with the internal workings of the legislative branch; if the Senate recognizes a particular person (in this case, the recently promoted vice president) as its presiding officer and that person declares a bill passed or a nomination confirmed, courts won’t usually intervene. But that assumes good faith on the part of all parties involved. If the VP knew of his or her promotion, and continued to act as VP anyway for political gain, one hesitates to speculate on the result. Certainly it would be an inauspicious beginning to a new administration! ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/18 "2006-01-26T21:10:09Z")
> [@Freddy the Pig](#): > > But that assumes good faith on the part of all parties involved. If the VP knew of his or her promotion, and continued to act as VP anyway for political gain, one hesitates to speculate on the result. Certainly it would be an inauspicious beginning to a new administration! Which is not quite the scenario in the movie. The Senate is deadlocked over the appointment of a controversial Secretary of State. The VP, Harley Hudson, learns of the death of the President during the rollcall vote. He wants to appoint his own Sec of State. Although a tie vote in the Senate means the motion to advise and consent to the appointment fails, Hudson makes a little speech about how he chooses not to exercise his right to vote and then announces the death of the President. Nowhere near as good as the way it played out in the book IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/19 "2006-01-26T23:12:33Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > That appointment is subject to confirmation, though. And if the confirmation is a tie … Oh, never mind–needs two-thirds. Too bad–that would be a really entertaining conundrum! ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/20 "2006-01-26T23:34:37Z")
> [@SCSimmons](#): > > And if the confirmation is a tie … Oh, never mind–needs two-thirds. Too bad–that would be a really entertaining conundrum! Would it have been? I was under the impression that in order for anything to pass in the Senate, it needs a majority. 50 is not a majority - and with the office of VP being vacant, then there is no one to cast a tie-breaking vote, and the motion (and nomination) would fail. Zev Steinhardt [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608.md?page=2)