# POTUS dies; when does VP become President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608 "2006-01-25T21:07:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/21 "2006-01-27T00:07:37Z")
> [@SCSimmons](#): > > And if the confirmation is a tie … Oh, never mind–needs two-thirds. Too bad–that would be a really entertaining conundrum! Wait, what are you saying needs a 2/3 vote? The confirmation of a VP to fill a vacnacy? Nope. > [@Am. 25 sec 2](#): > > Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/22 "2006-01-27T00:08:10Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Would it have been? I was under the impression that in order for anything to pass in the Senate, it needs a majority. 50 is not a majority - and with the office of VP being vacant, then there is no one to cast a tie-breaking vote, and the motion (and nomination) would fail. In the absence of a Veep, wouldn’t the President Pro Tem play that role? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/23 "2006-01-27T00:42:33Z")
But the President Pro Tem is already a sitting senator and would have voted. Ted Stevens, the current President Pro Tem, can vote any time he wants to. Dick Cheney gets to vote only when its 50-50. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/24 "2006-01-27T00:47:44Z")
Sorry for the slight hijack **zagloba** , (very interesting OP, BTW) but what would happen if the POTUS assumed room temperature and the VP indicated he would not serve as Prez, but preferred being VP & presiding over the Senate? Would the Speaker of the House immediately become POTUS? Would the VP remain VP? Or seeing that he automatically becomes POTUS does he lose that status? Would his refusal to serve as President count as resigning as President and because he becomes President upon the formers death he would no longer be anything at all (POTUS nor VP)? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/25 "2006-01-27T00:49:59Z")
And, Goddamnit, Can the POTUS legally carry a gun? When is Cecil going to honor us with his presence on some of this stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/26 "2006-01-27T02:53:03Z")
In _The Man_ by Irving Wallace, the president and the speaker are killed in the same accident. (“Zat ceilink vas over 400 years old!”) The vice president says he doesn’t want the job and they have to skip over him. That leaves the president pro tem of the Senate… who happens to be black. Then of course there is a cheap crack about the “White House…” Wallace published that book in 1964 when there had been no black senators at all for about the past 90 years or so. Edward Brooke wasn’t elected until 1966. Life imitating art? I don’t think so. It was in the cards, and Wallace was quick to catch on that the 1964 Civil Rights Act would be followed by Voting Act in 1965, which would soon lead to black candidates winning elections. It was an astute prediction, but still kind of an obvious one in hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/27 "2006-01-27T03:13:20Z")
Minor observation, almost a semantic nitpick except that it does have real consequences: The Vice President cannot “decline the Presidency.” He **is** the President, the moment the late President becomes brain-dead (no bad political jokes, please! :rolleyes: ). The most he can do is **resign** from the job if he actually never wanted it. And a man who wants to serve as V.P., and wins election to the office, but doesn’t want the Presidency, is only slightly less arcane than the issue of what happens if little grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli invade and shoot death rays killing the President, V.P., the Speaker of the House, the President Pro Tem of the Senate, and all Cabinet members except the newly appointed first Secretary of Environmental Affairs, which the Presidential Succession Bill has not been amended to include. On January 20 exactly halfway through a term, to make it a trifle more complex. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/28 "2006-01-27T03:40:14Z")
An interesting variation on the OP; when does the President become President? Suppose some bizarre scenario existed where a popular Presidential candidate was just a front man for a controversial Vice Presidential candidate. The ticket gets elected because most people figure the VP position isn’t that important. Then after the electoral college makes everything official but before the inauguration, the incoming President announces he has decided he doesn’t want to serve as President and will not take the oath of office when the current President’s terms ends. Does the VP candidate automatically become President or does the original candidate have to assume his elected office and then resign for it to be official? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/29 "2006-01-27T03:43:13Z")
> [@](#): > > The vice president says he doesn’t want the job and they have to skip over him In the book, the Vice President had died in office a few months before. This was before the Constitution had been amended to allow a new VP to take office so the post was vacant when the President and Speaker died. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/30 "2006-01-27T03:50:28Z")
Another bizarre scenario. If the Presidential succession is automatic, could a President and Vice President use it to force a Speaker of the House out of office? Suppose Clinton and Gore had decided to announce they were temporarily incapable of carying out their duties and stepped down with the Cabinet’s approval. Gingrich would have been forced to resign as Speaker and assume the Presidency. Then a few hours later, Clinton and Gore would announce they were feeling better and were resuming their offices. They would go back with the Cabinet’s approval but Gingrich would still be out of his previous office. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/31 "2006-01-27T04:42:41Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Another bizarre scenario. If the Presidential succession is automatic, could a President and Vice President use it to force a Speaker of the House out of office? Suppose Clinton and Gore had decided to announce they were temporarily incapable of carying out their duties and stepped down with the Cabinet’s approval. Gingrich would have been forced to resign as Speaker and assume the Presidency. Would he have been forced to resign? What if he refused? You could logically say that he would not become president and the job would go to the next person in line. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/32 "2006-01-27T05:30:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Would he have been forced to resign? What if he refused? You could logically say that he would not become president and the job would go to the next person in line. Others have argued that you can’t refuse - that if you’re the next eligible person in line to become President it’s automatic. Admittedly this may only be true for Vice President, but I can’t see any legal principle saying that the Vice President is mandated to become President but the Speaker of the House isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/33 "2006-01-27T05:42:13Z")
If a President and Vice-President used that gambit to get a recalcitrant Speaker of the House out of the way, they would have to hope that the Representative wasn’t very popular in his own district. Once the Speaker resigns, the district becomes vacant. There is nothing to keep him running for the office again. And there is nothing that would prevent his party from reelecting the Rep as Speaker once everything was sorted out. Then the impeachment hearings would start … ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/34 "2006-01-27T05:45:16Z")
Yeah, my bad, I was describing the 1972 movie version of _The Man_, in which the VP had gotten a stroke after taking office and decided he wasn’t up to it. Maybe because the movie was made after the passage of the 25th amendment in 1967, which affected the plot. They even had someone in the movie who had forgotten about the amendment and needed to be reminded what it said. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/35 "2006-01-27T10:53:39Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Others have argued that you can’t refuse - that if you’re the next eligible person in line to become President it’s automatic. Admittedly this may only be true for Vice President, but I can’t see any legal principle saying that the Vice President is mandated to become President but the Speaker of the House isn’t. There is such a distinction, and it goes back to **silenus** ’s point: > [@silenus](#): > > Actually, it is covered in Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 6. This is instantaneous. However, according to the United States Code Annotated, Title 3, Sec. 19, if the President and Vice-President are dead, resign are incapacitated, etc., the Speaker of the House does **not** get to be acting President until he resigns as Speaker, indicating a lapse of time. The [25th amendment](http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxxv.html) provides that “in case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President _shall become_ President,” with no condition precedent to the automatic succession. But the [Presidential Succession Act](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode03/usc_sec_03_00000019----000-.html) provides for succession only upon the successor’s resignation from the office or offices by virtue of which he or she succeeds to the Presidency. A statutory successor (as opposed to the Vice President, whose succession is constitutional rather than statutory) can refuse to resign and thereby “fail to qualify as Acting President,” a situation for which the Succession Act provides. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/36 "2006-01-27T13:20:28Z")
Yeah, I’m pretty sure nothing short of an act of God can FORCE a sitting Representative or Senator to leave his post (barring impeachment for malfeasance or whatnot). So while the Vice President is automatically President when the sitting President is declared dead (it’s pretty much 90% of why the job exists, after all) the Speaker of the House can say ‘Meessa no wansta give up meessa seata’ and stay in place. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/37 "2006-01-27T15:09:34Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Yeah, I’m pretty sure nothing short of an act of God can FORCE a sitting Representative or Senator to leave his post (barring impeachment for malfeasance or whatnot). Minor nitpick: Representatives and Senators cannot be impeached. They can, however, be expelled by 2/3 of the House or Senate (whichever they belong to). Of course, a sitting Rep or Senator can also be forced out of his seat by the end of his or her term. 😃 Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/38 "2006-01-27T15:22:12Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > But the President Pro Tem is already a sitting senator and would have voted. > > Ted Stevens, the current President Pro Tem, can vote any time he wants to. Dick Cheney gets to vote only when its 50-50. But if the office of vice-president was vacant, wouldn’t Stevens _have_ to act as Pro Tem? I find it unlikely that the Senate could take a vote without a presiding officer present. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/39 "2006-01-27T15:28:18Z")
A question, which must have come up at some time before Amendment XXV was passed: What happens if the Vice Presidency is vacant and, with the President Pro Tem voting in his capacity as Senior Senator from Hizzownstate, the vote comes out 50:50 (or 48:48, or whatever the number of senators was at the time)? Does he get a second, casting vote to break the tie? Or does the proposal being voted on stand defeated for lack of a majority? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/40 "2006-01-27T15:39:47Z")
I just can’t imagine a government in which one individual could hold the offices of senator and president at the same time—even if it could have been done within the letter of the law. I’m glad the situation never came up, because it just seems so wrong. It wouldn’t feel like America to me. Separation of powers is such a bedrock principle of the whole setup. I thought it was a historical curiosity to have a senator in the White House for a few weeks in January 2001, but she wasn’t pres. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608.md?page=3)