# POTUS dies; when does VP become President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608 "2006-01-25T21:07:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/41 "2006-01-27T15:54:14Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > But if the office of vice-president was vacant, wouldn’t Stevens _have_ to act as Pro Tem? I find it unlikely that the Senate could take a vote without a presiding officer present. There always must be a presiding officer. Either the President (the VP of the United States) or the President Pro Tem, in the President’s absence. But the voting restriction only applies to the President of the Senate. The President Pro Tem is just a regular senator who has been chosen to have an administrative role. He always has a vote, whether presiding at the time or not. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/42 "2006-01-27T16:14:34Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > What happens if the Vice Presidency is vacant and, with the President Pro Tem voting in his capacity as Senior Senator from Hizzownstate, the vote comes out 50:50 (or 48:48, or whatever the number of senators was at the time)? Does he get a second, casting vote to break the tie? Or does the proposal being voted on stand defeated for lack of a majority? On a tie vote, the motion fails. A simple majority is reached only when the yeses outnumber the noes. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/43 "2006-01-27T16:48:20Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Representatives and Senators cannot be impeached. They can, however, be expelled by 2/3 of the House or Senate (whichever they belong to). They _can_ be impeached, and a Senator once was, although expulsion obviously provides a simpler remedy. The reason to employ impeachment instead of (or in addition to) expulsion is to implement the “disqualification clause” (forbidding the convicted party from holding any office of “honor, trust, or profit” under the United States). Senator William Blount was impeached and expelled in 1797, and charges remained pending before the Senate even after his expulsion. After further investigation the Senate dismissed the charges, in 1798, without saying why. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/44 "2006-01-27T17:25:45Z")
> [@Freddy the Pig](#): > > They _can_ be impeached, and a Senator once was, although expulsion obviously provides a simpler remedy. The reason to employ impeachment instead of (or in addition to) expulsion is to implement the “disqualification clause” (forbidding the convicted party from holding any office of “honor, trust, or profit” under the United States). > > Senator William Blount was impeached and expelled in 1797, and charges remained pending before the Senate even after his expulsion. After further investigation the Senate dismissed the charges, in 1798, without saying why. True, Blount was impeached by the House. However, it’s not so clear that the impeachment was legal. In fact, it was argued during his trial that the House does not have the power to impeach members of Congress. The Senate or courts never ruled on it one way or the other and the House has never again tried to impeach someone. My wild guess would be that if it were tried today, the courts would shoot it down. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/45 "2006-01-27T18:09:01Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > All Cabinet members except the newly appointed first Secretary of Environmental Affairs, which the Presidential Succession Bill has not been amended to include. Doesn’t the Presidential Succession Bill simply say – or at least defualt to in the absence of other instructions – that succession goes through the cabinet secretaries in the order of creation of the posts? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/46 "2006-01-27T18:25:05Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > There always must be a presiding officer. Either the President (the VP of the United States) or the President Pro Tem, in the President’s absence. But the voting restriction only applies to the President of the Senate. The President Pro Tem is just a regular senator who has been chosen to have an administrative role. He always has a vote, whether presiding at the time or not. Of course someone other than the President Pro Tem can be presiding over the Senate in the absence of the VP. You don’t think the PPT never goes back home to campaign do you? But yes there must be a presiding officer by Robert’s Rules. Not sure how the Senate works, the the presiding officer should not vote. (S)he shouldn’t even participate in discussion of the motion under Robert’s Rules. So if the vote comes up 48-48. The pesiding officer may cast a vote to break the tie. (S)he certainly cannot do so if (s)he has already voted.\* If the vote is 48-47, the presiding officer should not cast a nay vote to make it a tie defeating the motion for lack of a majority. \*Aside – the rules of the MIT Science Fiction society allow this. In fact they allow the President to vote in the event of a tie. “Event of a tie” is interpreted as yeas = nays + or - 1 actually. That is, the tie may occur as a result of the President’s vote. In which case he can vote again. And it’s a bit more complicated than that since there are three votes “yea” “nay” and “chicken” so if the vote total is 1, 6, 6, a tie exists and the Preseident can vote yea, since a tie sitll exists, the president can again vote yea until the motion passes. Actually, it’s a bit more complicated than that since the president holds two offices by tradition, president and skinner and each is entitled to vote. Well that’s all by 30 year old memory you understand – thngs may have changed – and don’t worry, by conventio, the society never decides important things. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/47 "2006-01-27T19:12:33Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Of course someone other than the President Pro Tem can be presiding over the Senate in the absence of the VP. You don’t think the PPT never goes back home to campaign do you? In fact the PPT almost _never_ presides over the Senate. Presiding is considered a chore which is farmed out to junior senators on a rotating basis. > [@](#): > > _But yes there must be a presiding officer by Robert’s Rules. Not sure how the Senate works, the the presiding officer should not vote. (S)he shouldn’t even participate in discussion of the motion under Robert’s Rules._ And in fact they don’t debate; if the presiding officer wishes to speak, he/she will wait until his/her stint as president is over. Because the job is so trivial and transitory, however–with the job often changing hands while a roll call is in progress–the presiding officer doesn’t abstain from voting. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/48 "2006-01-27T19:26:05Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > … And a man who wants to serve as V.P., and wins election to the office, but doesn’t want the Presidency, is only slightly less arcane than the issue of what happens if little grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli invade and shoot death rays killing the President, V.P., the Speaker of the House, the President Pro Tem of the Senate, and all Cabinet members except the newly appointed first Secretary of Environmental Affairs, which the Presidential Succession Bill has not been amended to include. On January 20 exactly halfway through a term, to make it a trifle more complex. Before or after noon? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/49 "2006-01-27T22:04:12Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Doesn’t the Presidential Succession Bill simply say – or at least defualt to in the absence of other instructions – that succession goes through the cabinet secretaries in the order of creation of the posts? No. The Presidential Succession Act (codified at 3 U.S.C. § 19) still does not include the Secretary of Homeland Security. The act establishing a new executive department customarily adds the department head to the line of succession at the end, so that (as **OldGuy** notes) the line in fact extends through “the cabinet secretaries in the order of creation of their positions.” But the act establishing the Department of Homeland Security omitted such a provision – through oversight, I am told by a friend who worked in the Attorney General’s office at the time, but who knows. There was some draft legislation in 2002 or 2003 that would have added the Secretary of Homeland Security to the line of succession, but not at the end – following the Secretary of Defense, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/50 "2006-01-27T22:14:42Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > and all Cabinet members except the newly appointed first Secretary of Environmental Affairs, which the Presidential Succession Bill has not been amended to include. On January 20 exactly halfway through a term, to make it a trifle more complex. Huh? There is neither a Department of Environmental Affairs nor a Secretary of Environmental Affairs. The EPA Administrator does meet with the [Cabinet](http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html) in the Bush administration, but that status depends on the President’s pleasure, since the President can invite whomever he or she likes to Cabinet meetings. The only executive-branch officers in the statutory line of succession are heads of statutorily established executive departments, whose status does not change from administration to administration. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/51 "2006-01-30T06:04:14Z")
> [@](#): > > There was some draft legislation in 2002 or 2003 that would have added the Secretary of Homeland Security to the line of succession, but not at the end – following the Secretary of Defense, IIRC. To wander even further off the subject, I’ve heard that a proposal has been made to even further modify the Presidential Succession Act to include governors, in order of state populations, after the cabinet officials. The idea is that if the aliens nuke Washington in a sneak attack and wipe out the entire federal leadership, we’d still have somebody around to take the oath and order a counterattack (or to sign the surrender order). California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, like Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez and Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao, would be ineligible because of his foreign birth. So Texas Governor Rick Parry would be the 17th choice to run the country. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/52 "2006-01-30T16:00:36Z")
> [@brianmelendez](#): > > Huh? There is neither a Department of Environmental Affairs nor a Secretary of Environmental Affairs. The EPA Administrator does meet with the [Cabinet](http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html) in the Bush administration, but that status depends on the President’s pleasure, since the President can invite whomever he or she likes to Cabinet meetings. The only executive-branch officers in the statutory line of succession are heads of statutorily established executive departments, whose status does not change from administration to administration. As I would have hoped the alien invasion would have made clear, it was a _hypothetical_ scenario of extreme improbability, and I _invented_ a new cabinet-level office because I was unsure if the Secretary of Homeland Security had in fact been added to the law or not. The intent was to suggest the improbability of a Vice President who does not **want** to be President. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608/53 "2006-01-30T21:09:01Z")
**Little Nemo** , I started a thread on that last summer. I still think it’d be a good idea: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332688&highlight=bayh+washington](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332688&highlight=bayh+washington) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/potus-dies-when-does-vp-become-president/341608.md?page=2)