Pounds, shillings, quid, pence...???

Factual Questions
21

Mipsman and others:
You will still see “d” used for penny if you go into any “home center” (pre-decimalization “hardware store”). Look at the nails and you will see 12d, 16d, etc. nails. I reckon at one time these were 12 cents a pound, 16 cents a pound, etc. The “d” I understand to be from the Latin “Denarius”, the equivalent unit of Roman currency to a penny or cent (=“hundredth”). Use of the denarius in the eastern provinces and I suppose the Byzantine Empire led to the Dinar being pretty common as a unit of money in some Arabic countires.

I read in the Oxford History of the Middle Ages that the source of the pence-schilling-pound was during the time of Charlemagne. Although he originally used different names for his units of money, the odd 12p-1s, 20s-1 pound part of the relationship eventually settled in the far corner of Europe, the British Isles.

22

Thanks, Wendell Wagner. Of course, there’s sales tax in the UK as well, but it’s included in the marked price.

23

For reasons that I do not understand, UK sales tax* is only included in the price of some things. In a retail shop, a hotel, pub or restaurant, the price displayed is the price you pay (sometimes plus service in a restaurant).

But if you buy PC or call out a plumber or electrician, the price you will be quoted excludes VAT. I have no idea why.

[*Value Added Tax (VAT), originally introduced as a “luxury” tax in the 1970s at the rate of 5% and now applied to pretty much everything except for childern’s clothes, books and newspapers at the rate of 17.5%.]

24

Technically all items are subject to VAT (an EEC requirement I think) but the rate may vary for different goods. In the UK a number of items - e.g. childrens clothing, books, food (except confection or in restaurants) - are zero rated. Additionaly businesses do not have to pay VAT on legitimate business expenditure so they can either claim a refund or, if registered, avoid paying in the first place. This is the reason why PCs are traditionally priced excluding VAT.

With regard to the OP:

The old system of pounds shillings and pence was replaced in 1971 with a decimalised system. The pound was retained but shillings & (old) pence withdrawn to be replaced with ‘new pence’.

Pennies befor decimalisation were writen with a following ‘d’. New pence since decimalisation are written with a following ‘p’.

One pound (aka ‘quid’) = 100p or 240d

One shilling = 5p or 12d - a pre-decimalisation denomination but shilling coins were in circulation until quite recently. They were the same size as the equivalent 5p coins until they were replaced with smaller ones. Also known as a ‘bob’.

Crown = 5 shillings - withdrawn well before decimalisation. Comemorative Crowns are still ocaisionaly minted and are legal tender (worth 25p)

Half Crown = 2 1/2 shillings (or ‘two and six’) - withdrawn shortly before decimalisation.

Guinea = 21 shillings

Soverign - a gold coin with a face value of one pound. Obviously have a bullion value far in excess of that, though legally you can spend them at face value.

Other coins which were removed, replaced or re-defined:

Florin was 2 shillings and became 10p coins. History simmilar to that of the shilling.

Sixpence (aka ‘tanner’) = 6d or 1/2 shilling. Was retained for a while as 2 1/2p.

Threepence (pronounced ‘thruppence’)= 3d - withdrawn with decimalisation.

Halfpenney (pronounced ‘hape-knee’) = 1/2 d - withdrawn with decimalisation

Farthing = 1/4d - withdrawn before I was born.

1/2p - introduced with decimalisation but withdrawn some time ago as inflation had made them redundant.

10 shilling note (‘ten bob note’) - withdrawn around time of decimalisation.

One pound note - replaced with coins in early 80’s except in Scotland where they mint their own bank notes.

25

According to my British Dad, when he was a kid in the 30s, five-pound notes (a hell of a lot of money then) were minted by individual banks and if you wanted one, you had to sign the back. Old ones had lots of signatures on them.

26

I know that several people brought this up again in the thread, and I just wanted to say THANK YOU!!! I have always wondered what d stood for. I have seen pence abbreviated p and therefore wondered what the heck d was.

27

One that I hear more than any of the ones you listed is
“Bill” meaning $100.00, as in He’s grossing 10 bills a week.

28

At last! I can finally understand the (made to be un-understandable even to the English) passage from E.M. Forster’s A Room With A View :

(Miss Bartlett has just arrived and insists on paying for her cab fare, which had already been paid by her cousin)

"All right, if you'd really rather. Five shillings, and I gave a bob to the driver."
Miss Bartlett looked in her purse. Only sovereigns and pennies. Could anyone give her change? Freddy had half a quid and his friend had four half-crowns. Miss Bartlett accepted their moneys and then said : "But who am I to give the sovereign to?"

(Freddy’s friend offers to flip for the sovereign, but Cecil interposes.)

"Freddy owes me fifteen shillings," interposed Cecil. "So it will work out right if you give the pound to me."

(Miss Bartlett, who is reportedly “poor at figures, became bewildered and rendered up the sovereign.” Cecil enjoys playing at this nonsense, but Minnie Beebe protests.)

... "I don't see why Mr. Vyse is to have the quid."
"Because of the fifteen shillings and the five, " they said solemnly. "Fifteen shillings and five shillings make one pound, you see."

(they try to stifle her but she resists)

... Ow! No, I don't see and I never shall see why Miss What's-her-name shouldn't pay that bob for the driver."
"I had forgotten the driver," said Miss Bartlett, reddening. "Thank you, dear, for reminding me. A shilling, was it? Can anyone give me change for half a crown?"

(Lucy finally decides to take the sovereign and start over, going inside to get change. She returns to give Miss Bartlett her money.)

... "Here is your money -- all shillings, except two half-crowns."

Oh, by the way, MattK, sales tax in the US varies not only state to state but by city and (I think) county as well.
And food items are not taxed, except for some “snack” type items which can be. Some foods bought at restaurant places is taxed differently depending on whether you order it for there or to go. Actually, I don’t really understand it any more than pence, quid, and half-crowns.

panama jack

anyone know why ‘d’ means pence?

29

panamajack wrote:

> And food items are not taxed, except for some “snack”
> type items which can be. Some foods bought at restaurant
> places is taxed differently depending on whether you
> order it for there or to go.

This varies from state to state. Again, the best advice for a foreigner to assume that everything in a store will be taxed and then be pleasantly surprised when it isn’t.

30

And sometimes from region to region, as has been mentioned. Denver metro area was one such example when I lived there, and I assume it still is. Tax varied by 2 or 3 percentage points as you went from municipality to municipality because local governments were able to impose local sales tax on top of the state tax. Sometimes businesses like furniture or appliance stores would locate in “no sales tax” municipalities to use this as a selling point - “no local sales tax when you pick it up at our giant warehouse store”. If you had something delivered, you payed sales tax at the point of delivery - I once had a bed delivered, and the conversation with the delivery guy went something like:

“Lessee, this is Arvada, right?”

“No, it’s Westminster.”

(winking) “You just moved to Arvada.”

whereupon he charged me no added sales tax, as opposed to the extra point or two Westminster was supposed to get.

Of course, mail order across state lines was never taxed, as with ordering online. Whether it stays that way, it will remain to be seen.

31

The Brits pay in currants? How many currants do I get for a prune?

tcburnett, as usual you messed up the exchange rate. Gimme a break, one pound is worth US$400? Check http://www.oanda.com for rates of exchange.

The VAT is conceptually different from a sales tax but I won’t go into the details. The concept is very interesting though and has definite advantages over a simple sales tax which is why it has been adopted in the EU.

Those that are interested in studying the effects of different taxes should study the VAT closely.

32

The above link shows the exchange rate as of 29 July 2000. As TC stated, and as the link he posted clearly shows, his figures relate to the value of English currency during Elizabethan times. Seems to have been a bit of inflation in the interim.

33

Am I missing something ?

Surely it is difficult to have an exchange rate with a nation that does not yet exist?

I mean, - Elizabethan £/$ rate?

Nah!!

34

Several posters have supplied the answer to how taxes get tagged onto sales in the States, but the other side of your question has been missed: Why? Specifically, why can’t we tag the (previously computed) tax onto our price tags?

Basically, because the MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price) gets printed on the package at the factory. The manufacturer is not going to attempt to calculate the tax for any/every location to which they are going to send their product. (They probably couldn’t anyway, because when Sears or Wal-mart buy from the producer, it is usually shipped to a warehouse from which it will be distributed to multiple states.)

So the same roll of tape that will list at .89, will sell for .89 in a state with no sales tax, for .94 at my K-Mart, and for .97 at the K-Mart five miles to the west of me in a different county. The label on each package says $.89.

35

Thanks, tom, that’s exactly what I was wondering.

36

Just a correction to what JCHeckler wrote:

The basic unit of Roman currency, in which all accounting was done, was the sestertius. The name of this coin came from semis tertius, which meant two and a half. The as was the smallest Roman denomination, with two and a half in a sestertius and ten in a denarius. There were, therefore, four sesterces to the denarius, which was the most valuable coin in regular usage (weighing about 3.5 grams of silver). I assume the word denarius is derived somehow from decem, ten. A denarius, therefore, corresponded more readily to a few dollars than to a cent.

I have no idea where the “d” in nails came from. Sorry.

37

I recently read an Andy Capp comic, drawn pre-decimalization of the pound, in which he and Florrie were talking about a “dollar.” A slang term, I’m sure.

When Brits were referring to a “dollar” in slang terms, then, how much did they mean? 10 old shillings? (Which could have been worth about the same as a U.S. dollar, then?)

Thanks

38

A dollar in old slang terms was :
5 bob …
which was 2xhalfcrowns, which =
5 shillings … aka
60 pennies … aka
120 farthings … aka
240 groats.

A dollar, as an english financial amount would be unlikely to be understood by anyone born after 1965, if then.

39

One tiny further bit of addition to what fredicus has said: Since the now long obsolete slang term “dollar” meant five shillings, and this is one-fourth of a pound, this meant that back in the old days when the exchange rate was fixed at four U.S. dollars to a British pound, a dollar in British currency was exactly worth a U.S. dollar.

40

Casdave asked:

What the link was showing was the comparison between the estimated value of the pound in Elizabethan times and the present day value of the dollar. Certainly not an official rate- just the closest equivalence as calculated by an economic historian.

Using the current exchange rate as provided on the link posted by Sailor (1 pound = $1.50) and the value as cited by TC’s link for Elizabethan times (1 pound= $400) we can say that the value of the pound today seems to be only one 267th of what it was then.