# Pouring it on? (NFL) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999 "2007-11-19T03:25:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/41 "2007-11-19T13:54:01Z")
What about singing “Shipoopi” in the end zone after every touchdown? Is that poor sportsmanship? ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/42 "2007-11-19T14:14:21Z")
[QUOTE=Cyberhwk] I think every player should put forth 100% on every play. If you score, you score. With that being said it’s the coach’s job to think about long term success. Randy Moss is much less likely to tear an ACL when he’s sitting on the sidelines and Belichek would be the laughing stock of the NFL if one of his stars went down when they were already up by 40+ points. [/QUOTE] OK, and with most teams - where huge blowout wins come only once every six weeks or so - this is a reasonable approach. But the Patriots have done something this year that is unprecedented. Other than the Colts game, they have blown out their opponents in _every single game_. If the Patriots took out Brady, Moss, and their better offensive lineman (I still think Dan Koppen, Logan Mankins, and Todd Light are as important to that team as the QB or the WR) in every instance where the game was decided, those men would have played a full four quarters exactly once this year. Most of the time, they’d be out of the game early in the third quarter. Say they do that. Don’t want Brady or Moss hurt in a situation where the game is in hand, right? Fast forward a bunch of weeks, all of which end basically the same way. It’s the playoffs, AFC Championship Game, in New England. The Steelers are in town, and they’re giving the Patriots a game for once. Willie Parker has 30 carries going into the fourth quarter, and the game is tied, 24-24. On one side of the field, you have a bunch of guys who’ve played 60 minutes of football every week for seventeen weeks. On the other, you have a bunch of guys who are usually wearing the baseball cap by this point in the game. Conditioning is a huge factor in playoff football, especially in the cold weather against a tough opponent. In that situation, I’d take the team that’s used to playing 60 minutes every time. Part of what Belichek is doing is ensuring that his players are physically conditioned enough to play full games when it’s needed, I think. That’s “thinking about long term success.” And honestly, if someone is going to take a run at Tom Brady just to hurt him, then they’re going to do it. A player who does that will probably be suspended. If it can be proven that it was coach-ordered, the team might lose a draft pick. I’m nto sure which team is going to do that nowadays, but it’s a risk you take because you assume that most people in the NFL are not sociopaths. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/43 "2007-11-19T14:32:44Z")
Not defending what happened or anything, but one reason to go for it when you’re ahead by so much is that it is a safe time to do so, and thus give your team great in-game practice for when the actual need may arise. The practice field just doesn’t give you the same dynamics that the game field does. And if you have a chance to run your seldom used plays in a real game situation safely, then it makes sense to do so. (Not that that’s what Belichek was doing, but still.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/44 "2007-11-19T14:38:25Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] And honestly, if someone is going to take a run at Tom Brady just to hurt him, then they’re going to do it. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t talking about somebody deliberately teeing off on him, I was talking about stuff that happens as part of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/45 "2007-11-19T14:58:12Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Is there any good reason an NFL team should not attempt to score as many touchdowns as they can? [/QUOTE] Why not ask Belichick, since he clearly stopped pouring it on in the 4th quarter. Brought out the backup quarter back and even planned to punt on 4th and 1 from the Bills 31 yard line! Me, I would have kicked the FG there. That is the sort of thing you do when it’s a blow out, you change your strategy to one that emphasizes ending the game quickly and safely, with a win on your side. There are a wide variety of strategies to choose from in Football, scoring touchdowns as quickly as possible is not the only one. > [@Khadaji](#): > > On the one hand I saw an interview with Brady a few weeks ago and he said, in essence, when I’m having a bad day no one says, hey, the defense should let him hit a few of those passes. Guess Brady’s never heard of the “prevent” defense, where they willingly give up the short pass to prevent big plays that could jeopardize the win. It forces the opponent to use up a lot of time to get downfield, which is a good strategy late in a blowout, because time is all you need to win. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/46 "2007-11-19T16:03:38Z")
Nonsense. All a “prevent” defense does is prevent you from winning the game. Anyways, that’s not what Brady was talking about. I heard that interview too, and he meant it as in, you never hear anyone say that a defense that is completely blanking an opposing offense should “let up” if the game is safely in hand. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/47 "2007-11-19T16:06:04Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Why not ask Belichick, since he clearly stopped pouring it on in the 4th quarter. Brought out the backup quarter back and even planned to punt on 4th and 1 from the Bills 31 yard line! Me, I would have kicked the FG there. That is the sort of thing you do when it’s a blow out, you change your strategy to one that emphasizes ending the game quickly and safely, with a win on your side. There are a wide variety of strategies to choose from in Football, scoring touchdowns as quickly as possible is not the only one. Guess Brady’s never heard of the “prevent” defense, where they willingly give up the short pass to prevent big plays that could jeopardize the win. It forces the opponent to use up a lot of time to get downfield, which is a good strategy late in a blowout, because time is all you need to win. [/QUOTE] Have you ever heard of a defense with a big lead allowing the opponent to score just to be “classy?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/48 "2007-11-19T16:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] I heard that interview too, and he meant it as in, you never hear anyone say that a defense that is completely blanking an opposing offense should “let up” if the game is safely in hand. [/QUOTE] This is what confuses me about the Pats: they’re clearly an excellent team, but they’ve got this whiny thing going to. “You’d complain if we kicked a field goal.” (Nobody would complain.) “Nobody tells the _defense_ to lay off.” (Even though defenses typically do lay off, in my experience, and clock management isn’t really part of playing defense.) What happened to all that “Patriot Way” bullshit and being the purported class of the league? Are they mad that people criticized them for being caught cheating? It’s beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/49 "2007-11-19T16:19:05Z")
What’s not classy about playing until the whistle? They’re not cheap or dirty. They’re respectful to their opponents. They’re not nearly as cocky as they could be (Brady, in particular, with all his rings, money, magazine covers, TV guest spots and supermodels could have become a giant cock by now but he hasn’t). I don’t think that treating their opponents as equals and as pros (instead of as overmatched 9 year olds) is any kind of measure of class. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/50 "2007-11-19T16:25:25Z")
I’m kind of surprised at all the “exciting football” comments. While I could care less if they run up to score, I don’t find it exciting in the least. I can’t be the only person who turned away before halftime to find something interesting to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/51 "2007-11-19T16:28:37Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] This is what confuses me about the Pats: they’re clearly an excellent team, but they’ve got this whiny thing going to. “You’d complain if we kicked a field goal.” (Nobody would complain.) “Nobody tells the _defense_ to lay off.” (Even though defenses typically do lay off, in my experience, and clock management isn’t really part of playing defense.) What happened to all that “Patriot Way” bullshit and being the purported class of the league? Are they mad that people criticized them for being caught cheating? It’s beyond me. [/QUOTE] Brady was responding to the interviewer’s question which directly asked him about whether he shouldn’t let up on opposing defenses. He wasn’t whiny when he responded; he just matter-of-factly pointed out that nobody ever says the defense should let the other team score. And the field goal comment didn’t come from the Patriots, but from Patriot fan on an internet forum. Can you point me to somewhere the Patriots have actually been whiny? Impatient with all the questions about running up the score and such, sure, but whiny? I haven’t seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/52 "2007-11-19T16:29:14Z")
One problem is that the Patriots offense is so good at throwing the ball that they DO use the pass as sort of a clock killing drive. People need to remember that the best way to kill the clock is not “to run the ball” but rather “to get first downs”. The Pats are astounding at keeping the clock and the chains moving. They had 30 first downs yesterday. it’s not the first time all year they’ve had 30+ first down. Other high scoring teams like the Cowboys, the Seahawks, the Packers had around 20 yesterday. Even if you don’t want them to run it up, you can’t expect a team to kneel 3 times and punt. IIRC, the two drives that they went for it on 4th started in the 3rd quarter, and Belichick has always been aggressive about going for it on 4th. Going for it on 4th deep in the other territory, with a lead, isn’t rubbing it in. It’s killing the clock if you succeed, and giving the opponent a long field (and consequently taking more of their time) to score. With a big lead, getting 0 and giving the other team 97 yards (with a chance at converting and running more clock) is probably more effective than getting 3 and kicking off, giving them the ball on at least the 20 and giving them the chance at a quick touch. At least it’s not way worse. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/53 "2007-11-19T16:30:45Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] Brady was responding to the interviewer’s question which directly asked him about whether he shouldn’t let up on opposing defenses. He wasn’t whiny when he responded; he just matter-of-factly pointed out that nobody ever says the defense should let the other team score. And the field goal comment didn’t come from the Patriots, but from Patriot fan on an internet forum. Can you point me to somewhere the Patriots have actually been whiny? Impatient with all the questions about running up the score and such, sure, but whiny? I haven’t seen it. [/QUOTE] Brady is a little whiny in game. He thought he got cheap shotted on a QB slide. He wouldnt’ let the grounding call go in the first half. He’s in the ref’s ear a lot over stuff that a lot of other QBs seem to eat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/54 "2007-11-19T16:31:23Z")
[QUOTE=Stuffy] I’m kind of surprised at all the “exciting football” comments. While I could care less if they run up to score, I don’t find it exciting in the least. I can’t be the only person who turned away before halftime to find something interesting to watch. [/QUOTE] To me, it’s exciting in the same way as it is to watch Tiger Woods wipe out a field by 15 strokes. It’s exciting just to see greatness. I don’t think the outcome of a competition needs to be in doubt in order for it to be fun to watch. Watching Brady throw touchdowns to Moss is just aesthetically pleasing on its own merits, regardless of its context within the game. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/55 "2007-11-19T16:34:12Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Have you ever heard of a defense with a big lead allowing the opponent to score just to be “classy?” [/QUOTE] No, but that’s not the quote I was responding to. Brady suggested that defenses don’t "let him hit a few **passes**. Defenses routinely let quarterbacks hit passes, short passes, in order to better cover long passes, especially late in blowout games. The fact that there’s a joke about the prevent defense means that teams use the fucking thing all the time. That doesn’t mean the players stop playing, it means they use different strategy. Nobody, anywhere, actually expects the leading team’s players to quit trying. The entire point is that when you’re up by 50 points, it’s sportsmanlike to use a more conservative strategy on your offense and defense. Note how it is almost universally the coach, who sets the strategy, that gets called out for running up the score, rather than the players who execute the strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/56 "2007-11-19T16:35:14Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] Brady is a little whiny in game. He thought he got cheap shotted on a QB slide. He wouldnt’ let the grounding call go in the first half. He’s in the ref’s ear a lot over stuff that a lot of other QBs seem to eat. [/QUOTE] Not a single QB in the league lets stuff like that slide. Ever watch Peyton Manning work the refs during a game? OK, bad example - Manning’s got a reputation as a whiner as well. How about Favre? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/57 "2007-11-19T16:42:36Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Have you ever heard of a defense with a big lead allowing the opponent to score just to be “classy?” [/QUOTE] “Let”? No. But they often sit their big stars on D down since it’s just as possible for them to get injured as the offensive stars. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/58 "2007-11-19T17:33:01Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What’s not classy about playing until the whistle? [/QUOTE] There was some kidding there, as the Patriot Way stuff was marketing anyhow. 😉 As far as I’m concerned, you can play to the whistle at the end of the game without throwing as much and going for the seventh and eighth touchdowns. **Trunk** does make a good point about the way they use their passing game, however. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > And the field goal comment didn’t come from the Patriots, but from Patriot fan on an internet forum. I guess you missed Belichick’s comments after the Washington game, which I refered to earlier. In defending going for it on two fourth downs during the last quarter (including one on the 37 yard line), he asked “What do you want us to do? Kick a field goal?” Of course we don’t want that. If they kicked a field goal, people wouldn’t realize they never needed to cheat and just did it anyway. 😉 Comparing this team to the squad that pulled off the great comeback against Houston is flattering, but if you saw more than 4 seconds of yesterday’s game, I think you knew that wasn’t in the offing. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/59 "2007-11-19T17:45:42Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] To me, it’s exciting in the same way as it is to watch Tiger Woods wipe out a field by 15 strokes. [/quote] You watch golf?! Well that tears it, we’ll never understand each other. > [@](#): > > It’s exciting just to see greatness. I don’t think the outcome of a competition needs to be in doubt in order for it to be fun to watch. Watching Brady throw touchdowns to Moss is just aesthetically pleasing on its own merits, regardless of its context within the game. While I agree a great catch is a wonderful thing, in the NFL context is everything. I just don’t see myself several years from now describing any particular play from this game. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999/60 "2007-11-19T18:07:14Z")
[QUOTE=Stuffy] You watch golf?! Well that tears it, we’ll never understand each other. While I agree a great catch is a wonderful thing, in the NFL context is everything. I just don’t see myself several years from now describing any particular play from this game. [/QUOTE] Actually, the single play that was most memorable to me was executed by the losing team - Losman rolling out, then fumbling for no particular reason, then picking up his own fumble, then running away from the rush, then heaving a desparation toss downfield, _then_ seeing his tight end (Gaines) jump about seven feet in the air to make a one-handed catch, _then_ seeing the tight end bull forward and get the improbable first down. This had nothing to do with the context of the game, obviously, but wasn’t it cool to watch on its own merits? I feel like that with most of the Patriots’ offensive plays. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pouring-it-on-nfl/426999.md?page=4)