# Poverty and Intelligence **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008 "2011-07-22T18:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/161 "2011-07-27T02:04:27Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So, you with the face, are you saying you don’t think there should be government programs that re-distribute wealth? > > Also, fuck those ghetto kids, Randy needs a new pair of shoes. I don’t know about shoes, but I know he needs to get a new schtick. The current one is getting real old. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/162 "2011-07-27T02:09:19Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So, you with the face, are you saying you don’t think there should be government programs that re-distribute wealth? If you mean programs that help provide the poor with access to food, housing and medical care, yes I think we need those programs. But I don’t consider this “re-distributing wealth” any more than I think corporate tax subsidies are. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/163 "2011-07-27T02:09:22Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t know about shoes, but I know he needs to get a new schtick. The current one is getting real old. I believe you think you are in a different forum. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/164 "2011-07-27T02:12:21Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If you mean programs that help provide the poor with access to food, housing and medical care, yes I think we need those programs. **But I don’t consider this “re-distributing wealth”** any more than I think corporate tax subsidies are. Of course you don’t, but it is. Thanks for proving my point. You wax poetical and shit about the role of luck in people’s outcomes, all in service of your beliefs about what the government should do, and then you act all flabbergasted when someone suggests that you need more to make an argument for a government program than just “I think we should help poor people.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/165 "2011-07-27T02:15:26Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t feel like googling around and linking to articles for such simple propositions. You can do that yourself if you’re actually interested in this subject instead of trying to “cite!” me to death on simple propositions as a cheap gotcha. Taking money out of the economy through taxes reduces economic growth period, whether you believe it or not. When you say it’s a simple proposition, do you mean _it is_ a simple proposition or do you mean\* you think\* it’s a simple proposition? I think that if you actually do go search google for the effect of personal income taxes on economic growth you may be surprised. But to be surprised, you have to do the search first. And when you get done being surprised, remember that we were discussing the effect of tax rates on unemployment, and that’s a whole other kettle of fish. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/166 "2011-07-27T02:20:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What? You need to learn to speak more precisely if you want anything more out of this discussion than for you to rant and rave. I never said they are “all” lazier and stupider. If they’re not all stupider and lazier, then why are those others poorer? And how many are we talking about? Out of the 40 million poor, how many are stupider and lazier than every single one of the 180 million middle class? > [@](#): > > If you have something in particular you would like me to educate you further about, please do ask. I have lots of other things I would like you to educate me on, and I specified them in my post. Why aren’t you addressing them? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/167 "2011-07-27T02:24:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > If they’re not all stupider and lazier, then why are those others poorer? And how many are we talking about? Out of the 40 million poor, how many are stupider and lazier than every single one of the 180 million middle class? 32,567,123 > [@](#): > > I have lots of other things I would like you to educate me on, and I specified them in my post. Why aren’t you addressing them? Because you aren’t interested in having a discussion. You are interested in only misconstruing what I say, making leaps of logic based on your misconstructions, and then taking me to task based on the conclusions you reach through this tortured process. I’m not interested in trying to untangle all that bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/168 "2011-07-27T02:35:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 32,567,123 Provide support for this number please. And when you can’t, because you’re trying to be funny, then stop your rapid-fire posting and actually consider the question: "there are 40 million poor, and 180 million middle class. Simple statistics should tell you that almost all of the poor are going to be smarter and harder working than the least intelligent, laziest middle class. The obvious question should be: **then why are they poor**? Simple logic has shown that intelligence and work ethic can’t explain them all, despite your facile assertions. You’re getting angry when I ask this question because of cognitive dissonance. Look it up. > [@](#): > > Because you aren’t interested in having a discussion. You are interested in only misconstruing what I say, making leaps of logic based on your misconstructions, and then taking me to task based on the conclusions you reach through this tortured process. I’m not interested in trying to untangle all that bullshit. I would love to have a conversation, but the first step is reaching a common ground, and that means starting with facts, not with your misunderstanding of what the facts are. You can’t make wrong claims, get angry when asked to support them, and then claim it’s my fault we can’t have a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/169 "2011-07-27T02:39:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Of course you don’t, but it is. Thanks for proving my point. You wax poetical and shit about the role of luck in people’s outcomes, all in service of your beliefs about what the government should do, and then you act all flabbergasted when someone suggests that you need more to make an argument for a government program than just “I think we should help poor people.” I don’t know if you’re aware of this, so I hope you’re sitting down. **Welfare is an old program. It emerged in the U.S. during FDR’s administration and was part of the New Deal. We’ve had this program for long time now.** What this means, in simple terms, is that welfare is not some thing that I dreamed up for the benefit of this discussion and am proposing we adopt to save people from a life in poverty. Why bother searching my posts for a rationale for policy that has been in existence since the 30’s, when you could easily get that rationale by opening up a history book and reading about how the Great Depression was kicking everyone’s asses. Welfare was never meant to lift people out of poverty, as I hope you know. It only serves as a safety net to keep kids from embarrassing America by starving to death. That’s it. But let’s keep up the pretense that I haven’t devoted two posts to defending mentoring. Because then you won’t have an excuse to invoke the “re-distribution wealth” bogeyman again, and that’s good for at least two or three more eyerolls. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/170 "2011-07-27T02:51:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Have you noticed “opportunity” being used a lot in this thread? I have. In fact, it’s being used almost interchangeably with “luck”. I don’t think the two are the same, but they are intertwined. Sure, so if I said, “make your own opportunities” would I generate the same reaction, would people still think of a rich fat guy looking down his nose at someone? It’s true that some people have some opportunities handed to them. And like with your example, if a kid wants to work for 3M it helps to have parents that work for 3M. But if the kid wants to be a musician he’s shit out of luck. Problem now with switching from “luck” to “opportunities” is that it’s possible to increase the potential for opportunities. As was mentioned, a kid can join a mentorship program, and have access to better opportunities. I can’t believe I had to explain this to people. Stop focusing so heavily on the couple of people that seem to have it easy, and think about all the people without parents at the company that got jobs. How did they do it? Take that, and learn from it so that if you want to get opportunities you can emulate their behaviour. Really basic stuff here. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/171 "2011-07-27T03:01:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t know if you’re aware of this, so I hope you’re sitting down. > > **Welfare is an old program. It emerged in the U.S. during FDR’s administration and was part of the New Deal. We’ve had this program for long time now.** > > What this means, in simple terms, is that welfare is not some thing that I dreamed up for the benefit of this discussion and am proposing we adopt to save people from a life in poverty. Why bother searching my posts for a rationale for policy that has been in existence since the 30’s, when you could easily get that rationale by opening up a history book and reading about how the Great Depression was kicking everyone’s asses. > > Welfare was never meant to lift people out of poverty, as I hope you know. It only serves as a safety net to keep kids from embarrassing America by starving to death. That’s it. > > But let’s keep up the pretense that I haven’t devoted two posts to defending mentoring. Because then you won’t have an excuse to invoke the “re-distribution wealth” bogeyman again, and that’s good for at least two or three more eyerolls. Please. You are discussing much much more than just welfare. You said it yourself with your post about “access to” housing and health care. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/172 "2011-07-27T03:03:08Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Sure, so if I said, “make your own opportunities” would I generate the same reaction, would people still think of a rich fat guy looking down his nose at someone? If it’s said as a justification for not doing anything to help anyone else–as a way to defend _maybe_ helping the poor but only after one is dead and buried and has no use for money anyway–then yes I still see “rich fat guy blowing cigar smoke in a poor bloke’s contorted face”. You seem to be having a difficult time distinguishing 1) a discussion about social phenomenon and the amplifying effects of disadvantage in with one economic class versus another from 2) the advice (some of which is platitudinous) an individual should subscribe to in order to optimize their choices in life. If you join us in 1) and stop trying to pull us into 2), maybe, just _maybe_, we can all get on the same page here. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/173 "2011-07-27T03:09:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Please. You are discussing much much more than just welfare. You said it yourself with your post about “access to” housing and health care. My bad, Rand. I didn’t know Section 8 and Medicaid were so over the top that lumping them in under the umbrella term of “welfare” would trick someone into overlooking what I’m _really_ advocating. Commie pinko socialism, of course. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/174 "2011-07-27T03:11:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Those are some serious advantages to be given and I am very grateful for each of them. It is highly doubtful that I would be doing what I am doing today without them, and knowing me and my particular skill sets, seriously doubtful that I would be as successful at any other job. Notice now we’ve moved from luck –\> opportunities –\> advantages Also notice that the very meaning of the word advantage is that you will do better than someone without. Look at what you considered “advantages” when you were growing up. Most of them boil down to the fact that your parents gave a shit about you and your future. That is a MASSIVE advantage, but more to the point it’s NOT a rich/poor divide. Unless you want to make the point that poor people make bad parents, but I don’t think that’s what you meant to do. Now, if you are trying to pigeon-hole the discussion into a very narrow constraint of uber poor becoming uber rich I’m willing to concede that transition is based on luck. But for an uber poor kid to grow up and be middle class requires very little luck. It might be a bit harder than for the middle class kid, but it’s certainly doable. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/175 "2011-07-27T03:20:41Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Notice now we’ve moved from luck –\> opportunities –\> advantages I would consider luck to incorporate a whole lot of things, including access to opportunities, and advantages > [@](#): > > But for an uber poor kid to grow up and be middle class requires very little luck. It might be a bit harder than for the middle class kid, but it’s certainly doable. OK, so why don’t all the uber poor grow up to be middle class? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/176 "2011-07-27T03:22:59Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If it’s said as a justification for not doing anything to help anyone else Let’s be clear about something. If you personally feel that you benefited from luck, then you personally are free to help anyone you want to help. Likewise, if I feel the opposite, I am still free to help people in what ever way I see fit. What has \*\*Rand Rover \*\*in such a bother is that you are taking your personal feelings of guilt, and applying them to me, and then telling me that I should help someone else. And so we’re right back at the beginning: You are using this as a justification to force me to help someone else. Which translates into a progressive income tax structure to pay for social welfare programs. (ie tax funded SNAP, section 8 housing, and Medicaid) Yet I haven’t refused to help anyone, and that person hasn’t actually asked for help. You’ve simply slipped yourself into the middle, felt sorry for the poor person, felt contempt for the rich person, and decided that you should transfer wealth from one to the other. Do you see that’s what you’re doing? You feel guilt because you think your success was based on luck. So you assume that I should also feel guilt, in proportion to how successful I am. If you feel guilty, do something about it, but don’t tell me how to feel. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/177 "2011-07-27T03:26:44Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I would consider luck to incorporate a whole lot of things, including access to opportunities, and advantages If it has no meaning, or is defined so broadly as to be useless, then what’s the point of pushing so hard? Why not call it smurf and be done with it? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > OK, so why don’t all the uber poor grow up to be middle class? [What are some of the mindsets of poor people that keeps them poor?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=574564) [What is the mindset of middle class people that keep them middle class?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=574581) ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/178 "2011-07-27T03:30:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > My bad, Rand. I didn’t know Section 8 and Medicaid were so over the top that lumping them in under the umbrella term of “welfare” would trick someone into overlooking what I’m _really_ advocating. > > Commie pinko socialism, of course. You might not be aware of the fact that this line of reasoning is frequently used to justify the progressive income tax structure, and to push for more social welfare programs. We had a thread on it recently, and before that was a thread about how there is no true wealth without a crime. The concept is to diminish the work done by “the rich,” while romanticizing the poor, in such a way the rich have no choice by to give all their money to the poor or else their greedy monocle wearing bastards. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/179 "2011-07-27T03:32:15Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Notice now we’ve moved from luck –\> opportunities –\> advantages > > Also notice that the very meaning of the word advantage is that you will do better than someone without. > > Look at what you considered “advantages” when you were growing up. Most of them boil down to the fact that your parents gave a shit about you and your future. That is a MASSIVE advantage, but more to the point it’s NOT a rich/poor divide. … No it is not moving, not from how those who have been using the word luck have been using it. I was lucky to have those advantages. Now my Dad didn’t have so many. Both my parents were born poor, my mother raised in the first of the Chicago projects and with a father who abandoned them running away from gambling debts. They moved up on the basis of hard work and smarts and taking advantage of the good luck they had too. But my dad would have loved to have gone farther with his education, to have finished college, he even fantasized about being a psychiatrist instead of a salesman/small businessman … he did not have that chance even though I am sure he was as smart as I am and harder working. SES inertia couldn’t keep him from middle class, not in that post WW2 era, at least for a White man who could use an Italian pseudonym instead of his Jewish name on sales calls, but it did limit. His mother cared too (his father died young, as did two sibs), but my dad had made enough money to back up that caring with giving me opportunities. His mother did not have money (and when he first started bringing some home wouldn’t take his, convinced he was beating people up for the mob to earn it, instead of the sales job in a jewelry store that he had.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008/180 "2011-07-27T03:34:00Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > If it has no meaning, or is defined so broadly as to be useless, then what’s the point of pushing so hard? Why not call it smurf and be done with it? Lets say there are two basic reasons that people could be poor; either they did it to themselves (poor people are self-destructive) or they are victims of their circumstances (poor people are unlucky). Personally I call it luck because I don’t feel like spelling out the myriad things that can go wrong in a person’s life to cause them to be poor, every time I discuss them. > [@](#): > > [What are some of the mindsets of poor people that keeps them poor?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=574564) > > [What is the mindset of middle class people that keep them middle class?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=574581) Wait, are you saying that the 40 million poor–_that’s in this country alone_–are only poor because of their mindsets? 40 million people held down because they don’t self-actualize. Wow. If only they knew. Other than linking to a thread, could you give me your summarized explanation of why these 40 million poor aren’t middle class? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-and-intelligence/590008.md?page=10)