Poverty and Intelligence

Great Debates
141

Right, but the rich usually have at least ten shots at missing the right door, while the poor are lucky if they have one or two shots.

Luck is on the side of the rich because they are surrounded by more opportunities through no effort on their own.

Get away from thinking about yourself. Think on a social level. Yes, the winners have to go to class. Yes, they have to make the most of their opportunity. Yes, you have to actually take an opportunity in order for it to do you any good.

But are these opportunities distributed evenly throughout society? If you misjudge and fail to take an opportunity that could have taken you on the path to accomplishment, how likely is it that you’ll have a second or third chance? Do you think that likelihood is the same irrespective of what class you’re in?

How would my ex-BF know that by signing up for Mrs. Feinberg’s dance class, he would be positioing himself for a better tomorrow? There’s no way he could have predicted the implications of that decision, especially as a silly, unfocused, sex-deprived teenager. All he knew was that wanted an easy A and goof around to music every other day. Really.

“Make your own luck” sounds like one of those trite sayings that repeatedly get trotted out whenever we talk about social inequality. I don’t even need to point out that it is meaningless, because it’s an oxymoron.

When I hear “make your own luck”, I envision a fat rich man, soon to inherit to his daddy’s multi-million corporation, saying that to a guy who is about to lose his house due to chronic unemployment.

Opportunities that arise from random crossing of paths occur rather frequently. One of the reasons I have the job I do now can be traced back to a random encounter I had years ago with someone with clout who took an interest in me because of a commonality. In the absence of that encounter (and commonality), I would have been at a distinct disadvantage when later applying for a new position that later popped up. And that’s assuming I would have ever learned of that new position. The person forwarded me the vacacy announcement and encouraged me to submit my CV. Would have never happened if circumstances hadn’t allowed me to communicate with them on some random work task.

A fact that no one has denied. If changing the odds was impossible, I wouldn’t be talking about this, because it would be too sad and hopeless of a subject.

Yes, the God-did-it hypothesis. If it’s God’s divine plan, though, such a strange thing that Jesus went on record saying this:

142

To repeat some of what I wrote in another thread:

Many studies have shown that there is a correlation between IQ and income.
Here are the results of one study:

Average income for IQ 75 or below: $15,020,
Average income for IQ 100: $36,826,
Average income for IQ 125 or more: $55,555.

IQ is just one trait that is known to be correlated with higher incomes. There are others that have been proven to be correlated: competence, dutifulness, self-discipline, social ability, emotional stability, working longer hours. Mathematical, social and technical ability affects entrepreneurial incomes more strongly.

Der Trihs’ idea that incomes are basically random and based on luck is clearly ridiculous. Many studies have proven this. One might argue that IQ and other traits are mostly inherited and what that might imply but that’s another discussion.

143

I was going to respond to this because I thought we were on the same level, but then I checked and realized you’re not one of us at all; you’re one of the unlucky.

And you’re right, I can’t think of any reason to share my hard-earned food with you. Also, your children are crying too much as they starve to death, and it’s disturbing my sleep. Shut them up or I’ll have them beaten.

144

Now that I’m finished with accumulating credentials in my career, I plan to mentor a needy kid and hopefully expand their range of opportunities. I wouldn’t do that if I didn’t think that would help change their “luck”. Anyone who winds up with me as their mentor is gonna be one lucky person.

No, they’ll remain less lucky than the non-rich, but not necessarily “unlucky”.

Sorry, this scenario isn’t trying hard enough to be ridiculous in an attempt to prove whatever point you’re making. Next time instead of E. coli or choking, I think you should go for the Ebola angle. Much more colorful and exciting.

I don’t know what you think this example is supposed to show. That lottery winners don’t know how to manage money or haven’t grasped the concept of investments? This is not surprising to me all. Most lottery winners play the lotto chronically, hence revealing poor decision-making when it comes to finances and costs-benefits.

145

How is it that you’ll be matched up with your protege? Would he/she have to sign up for a program, and hence, increase their chances that they’ll be lucky enough to meet you?

Then again, it seems that the kid you mentor is pre-determined to be successful, and hence is already lucky, thus you haven’t actually helped an unlucky kid.

The kid you mentor will have signed up for a mentoring program, and thus pretty likely to “get lucky” from his/her mentor. If it wasn’t you it’d be someone else.

146

Have you noticed “opportunity” being used a lot in this thread? I have. In fact, it’s being used almost interchangeably with “luck”. I don’t think the two are the same, but they are intertwined.

How are we supposed to help the poor? Well, if we can’t create luck, we can create more opportunities. Right?

Because that’s really what well-to-do people have going for them. They have resources that will guide them, safety nets that will catch them, and networks that will hook them up. Why should all of this be the domain of the monied and privileged?

I look at my own work place. Every summer we take on some new crop of summer interns. High school and college kids. A significant number of them are the children of my coworkers. Don’t you think that’s pretty damn lucky for them? Instead of flipping burgers like I had to do as a teenager, these kids get to sit in an air conditioned office and learn some cool, marketable skills–not just because they work hard and are “good” kids, but because Mommy or Daddy are insiders.

Mentoring programs fill this gap. I’ve been a mentor before. I didn’t feel like I was changing the world, but I do think I may have been a pivot. You know, that person you look back on in your past and say, “Wow, they were a big help!” At an individual level, I think that’s what more fortunate people can do. Serve as pivots for those who are less fortunate.

Or they can choose not to. And then nothing really changes.

I don’t believe a person can create their own luck. But you can certainly make yourself someone else’s good luck.

147

Not a problem, I put it in my living will: 1.) sell all my possessions, 2.) give the proceeds to the poor, 3.) pull the plug.

It’s not my fault Jesus wasn’t more specific. If only he was a lawyer instead of a carpenter…

148

You don’t seem to have much of an imagination. Either that, or you just like to argue for the sake of it (and doing a bad job, I must say).

I take it you’ve never mentored before? Either as an individual or in a program?

Oftentimes, kids will be encouraged to sign up for a program by a teacher or a guidance counselor. Or a parent will hear about it and make the kid sign up. Or the kid takes the initiative and signs up all on their own. If it’s the last, that means you’ve got a kid who has initiative. Great. But if they have no clue what to do with themselves, then all the initiative in the world isn’t going to help them.

Additionally, not all mentors are the same. In grad school, we would have a few high school kids (inner city Newark kids) who would join our lab for the summer and serve as research assistants. I don’t want to slam on my former lab mates too much, but some of them SUCKED. Like, one of them thought it would be “cute” to take the boys to see “Finding Nemo”. Because, you see, we were a marine biology lab, and surely they would like watching a damn cartoon about some fish! I was furious because I needed those guys to help me put together an experiment that day. Other labmates were furious because they too needed their help. I imagine if the whole lab had been filled with graduate students more concerned about entertaining than teaching, those boys would have been less fortunate than their counterparts placed in more serious environments. What do you think?

I was the only black person in my lab. Hell, I was the only black Ph.D candidate in my department. All the kids we received each summer were either black or Hispanic. Again, not to disparage any of my colleages, but I think the mentoring program was a fortunate thing for both me and the young black woman who got placed in my lab one summer. She could have easily been placed in a lab full of Chinese students who barely spoke English. No telling what kind of project they would have given her to do. But I knew where this girl grew up (since I lived right around the corner). I knew she was smart, despite her speech patterns and the ghettofabulousness of her name. And I also knew that she needed someone to not just give her busywork, but to actually mentor her. She’d help me catch fish and shrimp in the mornings, set up my laboratory microcosms in the late morning, and then we’d collect data. Afterwards, I would teach her how to fill in a spreadsheet or show her the lab specimens we had in the classroom and try to find a cool fact that would stick with her about each one. We’d eat lunch together and crack each other up with cultural-specific jokes. (Seriously, that summer was the most fun I ever had in graduate school). She was shy around everyone else, but she was very relaxed with me. When I told her she was helping me get my Ph.D, she started addressing me as “Dr.” I couldn’t help but feel that she was not only doing that out of respect for me, but because she realized that the title wasn’t such a big intimidating thing after all. And that if she kept working as hard as she did, that she too could have one.

One day, during the middle of the school year, she came by to visit and invited me to see her in a school play. Lorraine Hansberry’s “To be Young, Black, and Gifted”. I could tell she didn’t think I was going to show up because when I caught up with her backstage, you would have thought the girl had won the lottery or something.

Was I a pivot? I have no idea. The last time I heard from her, she had her mind set on joining the Marines. Why the Marines, I have no idea. But whatever she chose to do, I hope she’s doing it. I don’t care if I helped her to be successful. All I know is that I helped her somehow. And that’s all anyone, including parents, can say about someone they’ve had positive interactions with.

Not all the kids I worked with in college and grad school left me with the same positive impression, and that includes my own students. Some kids were just hard to reach, or they just weren’t interested. Oh well. At least I tried. Trying is much better for your blood pressure than ranting and raving, I’ve found.

149

Hey. I just googled my old mentee’s name (having a unique name makes you easy to track down). Nothing came up for the Marines, but she attended Waynesburg University, a Christian school in rural Pennsylvania. Not Harvard or Yale, but still a long way from the mean streets of Newark.

Yay her.

150

How many 8, 9, or 10 year-olds do you know sign themselves up for something like that? It’s usually a parent or guardian that takes that initiative, perhaps at the prodding of a teacher or someone else in the community.

The question I have is why are you so insistent on focusing on what the individual does? It’s already been acknowledged that a person’s role in their own success is important, but it’s as though it causes you physical pain to concede that the equation includes a lot more variables than that.

What is this “pre-determined” nonsense? A kid is lucky if their mom signs up them for the program, sure, but it’s ridiculous to conclude that alone is enough. Perhaps the mom has already seen signs that the kid is heading down the wrong path, doesn’t have the know how to steer them the right way herself, and has made a last ditch effort to get outside help. How lucky is the kid if their situation is as desperate as that?

Truly, you have hit rock bottom in this thread if your argument essentially boils down to “Mentoring a kid who has requested the help of a mentor is a waste of time because the kind of kid who would ask for a mentor doesn’t really need one.” Let’s extrapolate this logic to a drowning man, and see where it takes us.

Is this excuse for me to tell myself, to ease away the guilt of non-action? Or is it for you? I can’t tell.

151

And yay you.

I hate the fact that these discussion are so polar. Seriously is there is any doubt that I had opportunities that the very poor did not? Raised solidly middle class. Surrounded by books and resources and a two parent multi-sib household. Encouraged to debate points around the dinner table. Put into a peer group which included people much smarter than I was and able to be a hanger-on to some seriously nerdy people (who went onto seriously great things). No question that I would have the resources to go to college and to then to med school when that was the path I choose but no pressure to make any choice other than a father who assured me that I could succeed at anything if I applied myself. C’mon. Those are some serious advantages to be given and I am very grateful for each of them. It is highly doubtful that I would be doing what I am doing today without them, and knowing me and my particular skill sets, seriously doubtful that I would be as successful at any other job.

My kids. The eldest getting into the Japan Exchange Teaching Program and now having a chance to live in Japan. Helped to find out about it by who his mother knows. Each of the other three knowing that they will be able to get as much education as they can stuff into their brains. They are lucky (and I am lucky to have them too, of course!)

These are advantages and of course I am trying my best to give my kids every advantage I can to become the most successful adults they can be (not the wealthiest, the most successful … I hope they have learned that the second is not defined by the first).

Yes, it was up to me, and is up to my kids, to leverage those advantages as best we can, with intelligence, skill, and hard work, and to accomplish something meaningful as a result. But to claim that those advantages don’t matter and that some clone of me born to some abusive backwoods household, or to a single Mom unable to be home because of holding down two jobs, and me in a crappy inner city school, would have done just as well … that’s crazy.

Yes, I believe that intelligence and hard work puts one in position to take advantage of the luck that comes ones way, and some luck comes to everyone’s way, even if many never realize it because they were not ready to take advantage of it. Some of the unsuccessful are not unsuccessful because of no opportunity but because they are stupid or lazy or both. And many of the successful had good luck but also had the smarts and skills and work ethic to use that luck. That is also true.

152

No, it’s crazy that you advocate a government program without even thinking about making a policy argument for it. You think that “it would be great if poor people were helped more” is a complete policy argument advocating a government program to take money from rich people and give it to poor people. Well, it’s not even close by a far sight.

Here’s one aspect of this. Taking money from rich people requires higher taxes, which act as a drag on the economy and slow growth (because money that would otherwise be put into growing the economy goes to government instead). One natural result of this is higher unemployment (don’t believe me? Look at the unemployment rates for Canada and the European social democracies as compared to pre-recession US). So, by advocating re-distribution of wealth, you are saying that it is more important for poor people to have money than it is for other people to have jobs. But you never actually articulate your reasoning behind that position (or even exhibit any awareness that you have that position).

This again. Sheesh.

You look at history as “X program wasn’t done, then the government did it, which proves that private actors can’t do X.” However, the government didn’t do X either until it did it. So why is this reading of history a point in favor of government? People just decided to do X and unfortunately chose the government as the way to do it instead of doing it privately.

The countries you hold up as models have shitty economies, high unemployment, massive brain drain, and are extremely fragile. Witness austerity measures in the UK. Greece was a paradise for people like you up until a year ago.

I don’t think that. The rest of your post has been ignored since you built on this false premise.

153

Great. Explain for me then why some people are poor and others are rich. Make sure that your explanation accounts for all those poor who are smarter, harder-working, and more educated than the better-off.

154

I’ve already stated in this thread that I believe success involves a combination of hard work, intelligence, and luck. What more are you looking for? I’m sure there are a small number of extremely intelligent hard-working poor people who are there just because of bad luck. There are also people grieving around where I live because (i) two 14-year-old girls were electrocuted while de-tasseling corn and (ii) 3 members of a family of four were killed in a plane crash. Shit happens sometimes. But not all the time. So what are you looking for from me exactly? It seems you thought I was a walking strawman for you to beat on–sorry to disappoint you.

155

Prove this please.

Not through hand-waving (which is all you have done in your post), but prove through well-cited peer-reviewed studies that the drag from the economy from increased taxes makes the poor worse off than they would be if the rich paid higher taxes which were used to implement social programs (but unemployment was higher).

Also prove that higher taxes increase unemployment (again, proof, not the hand-waving you tried in your post). Your proof should explain those countries with low tax rates for the rich but millions of desperately poor who are unemployed. It should also explain how when Clinton raised the tax rate unemployment dropped.

I will bet money that you will find an excuse not to prove your claims, but I hope you prove me wrong.

156

A small number? There are about 40 million poor people in the United States. You are saying that they are all lazier and stupider than all of the 180 million middle class? Does that seem at all reasonable to you?

Quantify for me please, the number of the 40 million who are stupider than all 180 million of the middle class, the number of the 40 million who are lazier than all 180 million of the middle class, and the number of the 40 million who are unluckier than all 180 million of the middle class.

Also explain why the ratios of the poor differ by country. Does Brazil have a higher ratio of stupid to smart people as the US? Do they have higher proportion of lazy? Of unlucky?

157

Cite for me saying anything about a government program.

Cite for me saying anything about giving money to the poor.

OH NOES! I just peed myself at the sight of the scary t-word.

Good thing I said not one solitary word about raising taxes to help the poor overcome their disadvantage. Not that this didn’t stop you from invoking a passionate defense against it anyway (the Canada bogeyman…nice touch), but still, I’m relieved anyway.

Calm down, Rand. The government isn’t going to mug you at gunpoint to help some more little ghetto kids improve their lot in life. As we’re currently witnessing, your boys in Congress would rather wreck the entire economy before they let that happen. So lighten up, Francis.

158

So, you with the face, are you saying you don’t think there should be government programs that re-distribute wealth?

Also, fuck those ghetto kids, Randy needs a new pair of shoes.

159

I don’t feel like googling around and linking to articles for such simple propositions. You can do that yourself if you’re actually interested in this subject instead of trying to “cite!” me to death on simple propositions as a cheap gotcha. Taking money out of the economy through taxes reduces economic growth period, whether you believe it or not.

160

What? You need to learn to speak more precisely if you want anything more out of this discussion than for you to rant and rave. I never said they are “all” lazier and stupider.

I’ll leave you to your ranting. If you have something in particular you would like me to educate you further about, please do ask.