# Poverty Apologists / Apologetics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287 "2016-04-05T19:52:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/61 "2016-04-06T21:20:10Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Totally missing the point. My point was that when you have a car, there’s an expectation that you’ll do all the things to keep it safe, roadworthy and legal. Stuff like state safety inspections, emissions inspections, needed repairs, state registrations, etc… > > Making excuses for the poor and their transport woes due to emissions testing is no more than a version of making excuses for poor drivers not having functioning turn signals or headlights or tires that are adequate to stop their car in the rain. I for one, don’t give half a fuck if some poor person can’t get to work on a rainy day because they can’t afford adequate tires, if it means that some other innocent driver won’t be involved in an accident as a result. How would you feel, if say… some beloved family member was killed or seriously injured in that situation? Would you give the poor guy a pass because he couldn’t afford non-bald tires, or his headlights weren’t working because he didn’t have the time to replace them? > > Why are emissions repairs any different? All of these things hurt others when they’re neglected. It’s a basic expectation of responsible car ownership to take care of these things. Being poor has nothing to do with it. It may suck worse, but it doesn’t absolve them of that responsibility. Wait, these are not basic expectations of responsible car ownership. Other countries don’t have these requirements. It’s something that the government has imposed as an additional responsibility of car ownership. If I’m going to force you do to something and punish you if you don’t, it only is fair that I account for your ability to do the task. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/62 "2016-04-06T21:29:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Other than driving or going to bars, what do you need an ID for? Buying spray paint, beer, car additives, paint thinner, just about ANY financial transaction, getting married, getting a job, etc… All of these things require pretty much the same exact forms that voting now does in a few states. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its still an extra burden that we put on one class of people that we do not put on the general public. How is that an extra burden? It’s the same burden everyone else has to labor under, but it’s harder to shoulder for the poor. I’m not being glib either; I think it may be a difference in perception that we have going on in the thread. Where you say “extra burden”, I see it as “the same burden”, but there are differences in how it’s shouldered. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/63 "2016-04-06T21:35:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Wait, these are not basic expectations of responsible car ownership. Other countries don’t have these requirements. It’s something that the government has imposed as an additional responsibility of car ownership. If I’m going to force you do to something and punish you if you don’t, it only is fair that I account for your ability to do the task. Obeying the law isn’t a basic expectation of responsible car ownership? How the fuck does that work? Most non-shithole countries **do** have regulations regarding tire tread depth, working signal lights and headlights, emissions, etc… Not all may require insurance or inspections, but that’s beside the point here. The point is that those things are legal requirements and obeying them is an expectation of responsible car ownership and driving, just like obeying the speed limits and traffic regulations are. People don’t get a pass on that kind of stuff because they’re poor and can’t afford them, or in the case of traffic laws, because they’re running late and might be late to work. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/64 "2016-04-06T21:42:39Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What do the actions of the non-poor have to do with people around here making excuses for irresponsible behavior by the poor, unless you’re trying to deflect the debate somehow? Both rich and poor people make bad decisions. Poor people who make bad decisions bear much higher consequences for those bad decisions than rich people do. Arguing that the consequences should be less severe is not making excuses for bad behavior. Should people return their library books on time? Of course they should. But a rich person who fails to do so is faced with less of a punishment than a poor person is. Should people limit the pollution they generate? Of course they should. But while we have laws against the kinds of pollution that poor people generate, the pollution that rich people generate is relatively unregulated. Still curious to know if you’d count yourself among the wealth apologists. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/65 "2016-04-06T21:44:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Obeying the law isn’t a basic expectation of responsible car ownership? How the fuck does that work? The law imposes additional requirements on car ownership. I don’t understand why this is difficult for you to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/66 "2016-04-06T21:58:55Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Buying spray paint, beer, car additives, paint thinner, just about ANY financial transaction, getting married, getting a job, etc… All of these things require pretty much the same exact forms that voting now does in a few states. Do you honestly think you can’t go through life without buying spray paint (which usually doesn’t require an ID), or getting married? And the VAST majority of financial transactions do not require an ID, and neither does getting a job in many cases. Again, roughly 10% of voting age people don’t have a valid ID. Why do you find it so hard to believe that no one can function without one? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/67 "2016-04-06T22:14:54Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Buying spray paint, beer, car additives, paint thinner, just about ANY financial transaction, getting married, getting a job, etc… All of these things require pretty much the same exact forms that voting now does in a few states. Maybe in your state, but most of those items require no ID in mine. Moreover, even the ones that do are not universal. For example, “getting” a job requires ID, but keeping the job you’ve already got does not, nor do you need job-related ID if you are retired, disabled, or otherwise not in the labor market. SOME financial transactions may require ID, depending on the type of transaction and the institution, but certainly not all of them. You can get married without ID (if nothing else, we do recognize common-law marriage in Kansas), you aren’t going to get carded at the liquor store unless your age appears to be close to 21, and we have no state laws on spray paint sales at all. If you don’t drive, don’t fly on commercial airlines, and aren’t in the market for a new job, the main reason you need ID is to be able to vote. “Being young-looking and wanting beer” and “wanting to vote” are not equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/68 "2016-04-06T22:20:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How strongly do you support a public education campaign to inform people about the actual incidents of voter fraud that would be prevented by voter ID laws? Surely such a campaign would be far more effective at achieving your goal, with far fewer costs to individuals, than voter ID laws would be. I strongly favor it – inasmuch as I strongly favor the First Amendment. In other words, have at it; any group that wishes to undertake such a campaign is welcome to. I assume you cannot be talking about government-as-a-speaker type stuff here, where our tax dollars are used to send this message. Because that gives government an advocacy role that I cannot believe you’d be comfortable with in other contexts. > [@](#): > > Indeed, by heightening public fear over a virtually nonexistent threat, it seems likely to me that voter ID laws are counterproductive. It’s as if I put up buoys at the beach and labeled them “ANTI-KRAKEN DEVICES”: do you really think it’s going to get people to worry less about kraken attacks? As small as the incidence of voter fraud is, I assure you it’s infinitely higher than the incidence of kraken attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/69 "2016-04-06T22:22:43Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > And the VAST majority of financial transactions do not require an ID, and neither does getting a job in many cases. Try to open a bank account post-Patriot Act without an ID because your company only does direct deposit and let us know how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/70 "2016-04-06T22:23:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In my state, you need one to apply for welfare. > > Regards, > Shodan What state is this and what program are you talking about? I don’t think you need photo ID for federal programs. Photo ID certainly helps verify identity but you can use the exact same things that you would use to get that photo ID in the first place to verify your identity to apply for welfare. Once you have your welfare card, you can use that ID (no photo) plus things like utility bills and pay stubs to do pretty much anything else you might need when you interact with the government. In the voter ID case, you get a voter registration card and prior to voter ID laws, you would present your voter registration card and vote but I suppose I could be voting for my recently deceased cousin. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/71 "2016-04-06T22:37:26Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Try to open a bank account post-Patriot Act without an ID because your company only does direct deposit and let us know how it goes. > **[Poverty in America: Millions of families too broke for bank accounts](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/us-news/poverty-america-millions-families-too-broke-bank-accounts-nvna17840373)** > > Sabino Fuentes-Sanchez hid $25,000 all around his house because he didn't trust banks. Lasonia Christon receives her Wal-Mart salary on a pre-paid debit card. Kim James was homeless for most of the past decade in part because she had no place to save... 8% of US households don’t have a bank account. It’s a problem for all sorts of reasons. Some companies issue pay via pre-paid debit cards for this reason. Or some people simply can’t work at those places. Companies that employee the working poor have to deal with this. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/72 "2016-04-06T22:38:54Z")
Lol this whole library debate cracks me up. Poor people go to the library to watch porn and rap videos. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/73 "2016-04-06T22:47:26Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Buying spray paint, beer, car additives, paint thinner, Aside from the fact that people without driver’s licenses are not likely to need car additives, none of these things seem like they would be very hard to get without a photo ID unless you are a glue huffing teen. I’ve bought several of these things without a photo ID. > [@](#): > > just about ANY financial transaction, opening bank accounts is not something this 10% does a whole lot. > [@](#): > > getting married, getting a job, Once again, not something this 10% does a whole lot. > [@](#): > > How is that an extra burden? It’s the same burden everyone else has to labor under, but it’s harder to shoulder for the poor. China used to use an imperial exam to pick its government officials (one of the most egalitarian methods of social mobility in the world at the time) but then those in power noticed that the intelligent children of wealthy peasants and merchants were doing well on the exam and they “tweaked” the exam to require proficiency in horsemanship and they kept out the peasants and children of merchants (who by custom, practicality or law were not likely to have ever ridden a horse). The purity of the mandarin class was more or less preserved for another generation before people started to learn how to ride horses. Then they introduced swordsmanship requirements (because these were once again things that the sons of mandarins were likely to have that the sons of wealthy peasants and merchants would not). This kept going until the emperor stopped it, and then another emperor would let these sorts of things resurface. There were always excuses why these things were important in an imperial bureaucrat but they were intended to keep out the undesirables. Its a burden because you requiring one group of people to do something that everyone else has already done. The benefit of the thing you are requiring is not only vanishingly small, it is being used to suppress the vote among a particular demographic. > [@](#): > > I’m not being glib either; I think it may be a difference in perception that we have going on in the thread. Where you say “extra burden”, I see it as “the same burden”, but there are differences in how it’s shouldered. Lets say that instead of a photo ID, you needed a federally issued ID other than a passport or military ID to vote. A welfare card of food stamp card is valid for this purpose. Anyone else will have to get some form of federal ID other than a passport. So everyone else will have to go and stand in line to get an ID that the poor already have. Is this an extra burden on those who do not already have the ID for other purposes or is everyone subject to the same burden? How many people do you think will just say “fuck it, I didn’t really want to vote for any of those assholes anyway” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/74 "2016-04-06T23:16:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I assume you cannot be talking about government-as-a-speaker type stuff here, where our tax dollars are used to send this message. Because that gives government an advocacy role that I cannot believe you’d be comfortable with in other contexts. Is this one of them “reality has a liberal bias” posts? Because all I’m advocating is a campaign to educate people about the facts of voter fraud. That’s only advocacy if the opposite political view is based on disinformation. > [@](#): > > As small as the incidence of voter fraud is, I assure you it’s infinitely higher than the incidence of kraken attacks. In one of the great coincidences of modern life, the number of elections swayed by the kind of voter fraud stopped by voter ID is precisely equal to the number of kraken attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/75 "2016-04-06T23:18:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What state is this and what program are you talking about? > > I don’t think you need photo ID for federal programs. Photo ID certainly helps verify identity but you can use the exact same things that you would use to get that photo ID in the first place to verify your identity to apply for welfare. Once you have your welfare card, you can use that ID (no photo) plus things like utility bills and pay stubs to do pretty much anything else you might need when you interact with the government. Er… what is a “welfare card”? My state doesn’t have that. We do have a plastic thingy that accesses your SNAP or TANF account, but anyone you do business with is able to (and occasionally does) ask for ID to prove you’re the person on the card, and if you can’t provided you could be denied service. There’s a separate ID card for medical coverage, but I’ve never been asked for that without ALSO being asked for a photo ID. Honestly, I _don’t_ know how people get by without valid government photo IDs, you really are cut off even from a lot of social aid. My state DOES require you to confirm your identity to get government or state benefits of any sort, and the first thing they ask for is either a driver’s license or state ID. That is also to confirm you are a resident of our state and not crossing the border from a nearby state. If you can’t produce one you’re going to have a major delay while you get alternate forms of ID, and if you can’t pay for a copy of your birth certificate if you need one (and if you apply for SNAP in this state you WILL be asked to produce one, or a proof you’re a naturalized citizen) you’re basicly f\*\*\*ed. If you don’t have a job you don’t have pay stubs. I haven’t had a utility bill in almost 20 years because utilities are included in my rent. For about 5 years, in fact, I pretty much had nothing to prove I existed other than my rent receipt and the receipt from the local grocery store. Didn’t buy anything other than rent, food, and gas for that time period. I did keep up my driver’s license, though, even when I had to borrow money to get it renewed though because once you lose that photo ID in our current society it is VERY different to get anywhere other than rock-bottom basics. That’s probably why the “family services” offices in my county make helping people get a valid photo ID a priority, up to an including helping them get transportation to the DMV if they need it. Then again, although far from perfect, there are actually some competent people working in that part of the state government in my county. > [@](#): > > In the voter ID case, you get a voter registration card and prior to voter ID laws, you would present your voter registration card and vote but I suppose I could be voting for my recently deceased cousin. Well, if you live in Chicago… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/76 "2016-04-06T23:21:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Lets say that instead of a photo ID, you needed a federally issued ID other than a passport or military ID to vote. A welfare card of food stamp card is valid for this purpose. Again, what is a “welfare card”? Where do you live that they have these? Where I live poor people are expected to have either a driver’s license or the State ID version of photo ID. I’d also like to point out that one’s income can be below the Federal Poverty Line and you still might not qualify for foodstamps. I know this, because I am in that situation and have been for a couple of years now. Not that I’m complaining. But I’m just pointing out that not everyone who is poor is on SNAP, or receiving “welfare” of some sort. I still had to borrow the money to get my driver’s license renewed last time I needed a new one because the proceeding couple of months had been bad ones financially for us (we’re better now, yay, but largely because I could still legally drive to my job). Also - the SNAP cards are issued by STATES, not the Federal government. At least they are in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin which is where i have encountered them. A SNAP card is NOT a\*\* Federal ID\*\*. It’s not even a State ID. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/77 "2016-04-06T23:26:05Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Lol this whole library debate cracks me up. > > Poor people go to the library to watch porn and rap videos. Wowwwwwwwwwwwwww ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/78 "2016-04-06T23:28:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Other than driving or going to bars, what do you need an ID for? How about obtaining (certain) prescription medications or behind the counter meds? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/79 "2016-04-06T23:48:11Z")
> [@bump](#): > > How is that an extra burden? It’s the same burden everyone else has to labor under, but it’s harder to shoulder for the poor. > > I’m not being glib either; I think it may be a difference in perception that we have going on in the thread. Where you say “extra burden”, I see it as “the same burden”, but there are differences in how it’s shouldered. There is pretty much no burden for non-poor people, since they already have an ID for other reasons. It is only certain poor people who have to go get a license specifically to be able to vote. That makes it a burden on them, but not on the others. And a burden that is harder to shoulder is the definition of a larger burden. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/80 "2016-04-06T23:54:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In one of the great coincidences of modern life, the number of elections swayed by the kind of voter fraud stopped by voter ID is precisely equal to the number of kraken attacks. That is a very confident claim. It also happens to be complete bullshit. It is true that there are many types of election fraud but proxy voting on behalf of the dead and disabled and others is one of those strategies especially in states like Illinois (Chicago in particular), Louisiana (my home state), Rhode Island and even California and New York. Here is a detailed article on it from Salon, hardly a conservative rag. Some selected paragraphs include: “Overall, 10 percent of Chicago’s one million votes for governor, mayor, city council, and other public officials were alleged to be fraudulent. “The fraud we uncovered in these indictments is so great, the scheme so intense, that the exact number of votes stolen in the November elections is unknown,” Webb announced at a press conference revealing the arrest of ten officials on the city’s West Side.” "Elsewhere in the precinct, the “standard operating procedure” for stealing votes was similar. Hicks, who pleaded guilty in exchange for testifying against others, recounted “visiting every hotel and flophouse in the West Side ward to pay for votes and **obtain lists of people who had died or moved and would not be voting.” One hotel clerk demanded a case of wine, which Hicks supplied in exchange for a list of residents."** Please do your research before you make definitive but completely ignorant statements on this topic again. This article contains only some examples of things that you proudly proclaim don’t exist at all yet real people went to prison for things you say have never happened. There are many others contrary to your denial. > **[Election fraud Chicago style: Illinois’ decades-old notoriety for election...](https://www.salon.com/2016/02/14/election_fraud_chicago_style_illinois_decades_old_notoriety_for_election_corruption_is_legendary/)** > > These days, opportunities for corruption may have shrunk for civil servants, but not for business leaders [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287.md?page=5)