# Poverty Apologists / Apologetics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287 "2016-04-05T19:52:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/161 "2016-04-10T18:57:56Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Even if the government isn’t actively punishing someone, the failure to help those we deem “undeserving” can also be viewed as a form of punishment. If you can’t afford something you need (for example, food, housing, or healthcare) by paying for it with a job that you have in the private sector, you don’t deserve it. You should suffer the consequences of not being sufficiently ambitious. > > For example, the hysterical opposition to healthcare reform in the U.S seems to be largely about making sure that we don’t help undeserving poor people. In fact, since we pay more per capita as a nation for worse outcomes, we are actually paying a premium just to satisfy this punitive urge. That’s ridiculous. Existence doesn’t grant you a claim to others’ lives or products from their lives. ---
**Author:** ![SailorHG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SailorHG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SailorHG)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/162 "2016-04-10T21:23:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > How is this to be paid for? > > If we say that there should be one car for every three Americans, and the USA has a population of 300 million, and each self-driving car costs $20,000 apiece, that’s $2 trillion. I think you are overestimating the amount of cars that would be needed. According to this link > **["Cars are parked 95% of the time". Let's check!](https://www.reinventingparking.org/2013/02/cars-are-parked-95-of-time-lets-check.html)** > > "Most people in transportation focus on the five percent of the time that cars are moving. But the average car is parked 95 percent of the ... the average car sits parked 95% of the time. Granted they are counting nighttime hours as well, when very few cars could service those who need them, as opposed to much greater demand in the day. Still, even using your figures, given an average of 50,000 billable miles per year for each car and a five year lifespan, that would amount to eight cents per mile. Tack onto that amount the standard federal milage figure and there you get the rental price for the break-even amount to charge the riders. Poor riders could get a monthly “milage allowance” to subsidise this cost, whereas the rest of us could pay out-of-pocket. ---
**Author:** ![SailorHG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SailorHG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SailorHG)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/163 "2016-04-10T21:26:15Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > How does sacrificing the freedom to, say, run a few errands on the way home from work improve our “quality of life”? The easy answer would be to charge a price based both on milage and time-of-use, similar to a taxi ride. Then you could park your car at the places you need to visit and it would still be there waiting for you when you get back. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/164 "2016-04-11T00:15:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s ridiculous. Existence doesn’t grant you a claim to others’ lives or products from their lives. I believe in a [basic income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income) (everyone gets enough for food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare, unconditionally). I wouldn’t so much put it as “Existence granting you a claim to other lives or products from their lives.” That’s a woo woo metaphysical claim that as an agnostic I don’t buy in to. But I think it would be a good public policy. In our advanced technological society there’s plenty to go around. Nobody should be forced into [wage slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery). ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/165 "2016-04-11T00:38:15Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I believe in a [basic income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income) (everyone gets enough for food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare, unconditionally). > > I wouldn’t so much put it as “Existence granting you a claim to other lives or products from their lives.” That’s a woo woo metaphysical claim that as an agnostic I don’t buy in to. But I think it would be a good public policy. In our advanced technological society there’s plenty to go around. Nobody should be forced into [wage slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery). Wage slavery is pretty insulting to anyone who was ever actually a slave. Your link seems to indicate it’s essentially a poorly paying unfulfilling job, like every summer high school job ever. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/166 "2016-04-11T03:13:31Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I believe in a [basic income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income) (everyone gets enough for food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare, unconditionally). > > I wouldn’t so much put it as “Existence granting you a claim to other lives or products from their lives.” That’s a woo woo metaphysical claim that as an agnostic I don’t buy in to. But I think it would be a good public policy. In our advanced technological society there’s plenty to go around. Nobody should be forced into [wage slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery). I’m for some form of basic income. Not as generous as your proposal though! And mine would have conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/167 "2016-04-11T03:43:23Z")
Isn’t minimum wage a “basic income?” Do we just need to raise it or do we need to guarantee food, shelter, and means of transportation regardless of whether someone is willing to work? I would wager if we implemented the latter we’d see unemployment sky-rocket and all the money that pays for this “basic income” would dry up real quick. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/168 "2016-04-11T11:07:55Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Isn’t minimum wage a “basic income?” Not anymore. In most places in the US, particuarly urban areas, which is where most people live these days, minimum wage is not sufficient to allow an adult to be self-supporting. I’ve known a number of people who work full time and yet spent time in homeless shelters or living in their cars because minimum wage wasn’t enough to allow them to keep a roof over their head, even as a roommate. That’s why “we need affordable housing” is heard about as often as “we need to raise the minimum wage”. > [@](#): > > Do we just need to raise it or do we need to guarantee food, shelter, and means of transportation regardless of whether someone is willing to work? Raising minimum wage would be a good start. I don’t that we need to raise it to $15/hour as some suggest, but increasing it to some extent would be highly beneficial. It’s not like the poor people are going to be squirreling it away in a mattress, any such wages will be promptly recycled back into the economy. You also want to raise it incrementally to avoid shocks to the system but yes, I do believe it should be raised. However, what many people of your “people should work, dammit!” team aren’t considering is that automation will continue to replace many more jobs in the future. This will result in people _willing_ to work, but _unable to find_ work. What are you going to do about them? Simply starving them to give them incentive to find a job isn’t going to work if there are no jobs available. If you make getting basic needs fulfilled contingent upon working them maybe we’ll have to make the standard 30 hours a week or even 20 so there are enough jobs to go around (this will also have the bonus of making it easier for some to hold down a job, there are people who find working 40 hours a week difficult but could much better manage 20). Don’t get me wrong - I’m in favor of working, do it myself, actually planning to retire later than most - but the problems were discussing here are a bit more complex than anyone would like. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/169 "2016-04-11T16:22:33Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I would wager if we implemented the latter we’d see unemployment sky-rocket and all the money that pays for this “basic income” would dry up real quick. If a basic income ever gets implemented somewhere, and this does indeed happen as you fear, I will be happy to admit my error. One of my core values as a liberal is the willingness to change my mind when confronted with new information. I personally think it would provide a cushion against economic recessions, because the people at the bottom end of the economic spectrum spend virtually every penny of what they take in. Consumer spending is what keeps the economy going. With an absolute guarantee of living above the poverty line, people will be less inclined to hoard their money during an economic downturn. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/170 "2016-04-11T16:43:26Z")
> [@SailorHG](#): > > I completely agree, except that cars should be free for _everyone_. Once self-driving vehicles becomes A Thing, each community should provide a fleet of them to service its members, charging usage by the kilometre (and either fines or loss of riding privileges for the slobs who leave their spilled coffee cups on the floor) based on one’s ability to pay. That gets rid of the need for lessons, licences and insurance right there. > > Of course there will be things to work out, but with an expert system to do scheduling, and limited-range restrictions (such as, the car does not take you all the way to work, but to the nearest subway stop) the results will significantly improve our quality of life. Both for the poor and for everyone. What you’re describing sounds a lot like today’s local bus system. How do (presumably more expensive and lower capacity) self-driving cars make it better / financially sustainable? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/171 "2016-04-11T16:45:30Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If a basic income ever gets implemented somewhere … In your opinion, has no one in the history of the world tried something close to the basic income you advocate for? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/172 "2016-04-11T16:48:52Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > With an absolute guarantee of living above the poverty line, people will be less inclined to hoard their money during an economic downturn. I don’t believe it’s possible to provide “an absolute guarantee of living above the poverty line”. I believe Venezuela tried it most recently, and appears to be failing. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/173 "2016-04-11T16:56:59Z")
It appears that Finland is experimenting with a UBI. More of a trial period at the moment - and then will look at the findings to see if it should be expanded for the country. It’ll be interesting to see what they find. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/174 "2016-04-11T17:07:36Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Isn’t minimum wage a “basic income?” No, typically a “basic income” policy means that everybody gets minimal means of support whether they’re working or not. Like in the _Star Trek_ Federation system: the society has enough resources to provide basic support to everybody, so basic support is decoupled from earning or “deserving”. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/175 "2016-04-11T17:08:18Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If a basic income ever gets implemented somewhere, and this does indeed happen as you fear, I will be happy to admit my error. One of my core values as a liberal is the willingness to change my mind when confronted with new information. There are beneficiaries of Universal Basic Income all around you. They’re called adult children living at home, and their parents are generally pretty unhappy about the situation. Countless forums have parents asking how do I get my child off his ass and onto doing something with his or her life. No, no, I’m not talking about the child who is the victim of misfortune. I’m talking about the 30 yo who plays video games all day and smokes pot. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/176 "2016-04-11T17:20:38Z")
[quote=“Broomstick, post:96, topic:751287”] They’re not ID cards. There is no identifying information on them other than a name. They can not be used as ID’s. I am baffled why you think they’d be an adequate substitute, particularly since, in my state, you get ONE issued for the entire household. Soooo… only the person who usually does the grocery shopping gets to vote? [quote] I thought there was one for each adult. My mistake, a website claims that you can use your TANF card to establish identity to qualify for some federal programs. But for the sake of argument, lets say that they issue one to each adult. > [@](#): > > In theory, my spouse could have used it, too, even though it doesn’t have his name on it, since he’s part of the same household but we never tried it. Really, I don’t think you’re idea of using a “welfare card” as an ID is workable. How do you think they determine the identity of voters inn places with a photo ID voting requirement? > [@](#): > > In my state they aren’t free. In fact, they cost MORE than a driver’s license in my state, unless you’re a senior or disabled. ($20 for the ID vs. $17.50 for a license valid 6 years). Then I’m going to guess your state doesn’t have a photo ID requirement to vote. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/177 "2016-04-11T17:22:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Except, again, the middle class and wealthy are better able to paper over their “mistakes”. > > This brought to mind an accident I was in a couple months ago - I’ve been driving for over 35 years and had _zero_ accidents until that day, zero, nada, none. While I’ll be the first to admit there was an element of luck to that, clearly I’m NOT a reckless driver, either, because if I had been my record wouldn’t have been that spotless. Anyhow, I was sitting at an intersection waiting for a light to turn green when I got rear-ended. > > Here’s my though process: “Holy S\*\*\*! I just got hit! Is my passenger OK? Am I OK? Shit, shit, shit - how much is this going to cost me? I just finished paying for new shocks on this thing, and got the brakes fixed, and now THIS? How much is my insurance going up? What am I going to have to give up to pay for it? We’ve got TWO families depending on me getting people to and from work (we were returning from work, and my passenger’s car is dead and she hasn’t money to fix it so she’s depending on others to help her keep her job).” In other words, I’m a responsible poor person wondering how the f\*\*\* I’m going to pay for this shit. > > I get out of my pick-up. The woman who rear-ended me is CLEARLY much better off financially based just on the vehicle she’s driving and the amount of jewelry/high fashion clothing she has on. _She still has her cellphone in her hand_ when she looks at me and says "I am _so sorry!"_ > > (I must admit, the apology went a long way towards cooling my fear and anger down) > > Here’s the thing - if my auto insurance goes up because of this I _have to_ squeeze that out of my budget somehow. Which probably means cutting back on our food. We’re down to eating meat maybe two-three times a week and not by choice. Maybe I have to give up any kind of fresh fruit other than bananas, which are stupid cheap (and I’m stupid tired of them, to be honest). Maybe I have to start charging my co-worker for gas instead of letting her keep those few pennies in hopes of maybe getting HER vehicle fixed. I don’t know, all I know is that my budget is calculated down to the penny, I have virtually no cushion whatsoever, and if my premiums go up I don’t know how the hell I’m going to pay them or what I can cut otherwise - we don’t drink, we don’t smoke, we don’t go out… about the only thing left is giving up Netflix, I guess we can just sit home and watch infomercials, but somehow I doubt that $7/month is going to be enough. > > The lady who hit me? Maybe she cuts back on her Starbuck’s habit, or just has a mani instead of a mani-pedi or something. > > See the difference? You’re looking at it backward. If you got hit, your insurance doesn’t go up, unless you file a claim. Which is what happens if the OTHER guy doesn’t have insurance in that case. So your situation would have only been problematic in terms of premiums going up, if the other guy wasn’t responsible enough to carry liability insurance. Which is my exact point for the thread. That lady that hit you WAS responsible. You should be glad she had cash, as she could be responsible and make it right. What if it had been some illegal alien driving a beater from 1989 who rear-ended you and didn’t have insurance? Rich or poor doesn’t come into it- it’s a question of responsibility, which in this case is carrying liability insurance so you can pay for your own mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/178 "2016-04-11T17:23:12Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > I have come across more aliens that have no right to vote that are registered and doing so though, so anyone who says this is not a problem is incorrect. Do you have a cite for that because it sounds like bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/179 "2016-04-11T17:29:38Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > When I started 25+ years ago, no one wanted to be known as a criminal nor associate with one. Then it went form that to, “Yeah I did it but I learned my lesson,” to “Yeah I did it but it wasn’t my fault” to "Yeah I did it so what? It becomes less of a stigma when we have millions of people in jail and when up to a third of adults have an arrest record and about half that have a criminal record. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287/180 "2016-04-11T17:33:21Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > That’s incredibly vague and doesn’t make any sense. I’m not sure what a ‘wacky date’ is, but if anything its retired people that have all the time in the world and they by in large vote Republican. Low turnout does indeed produce wild results, I’m not sure it follows teacher unions and AFCLME benefit though. > > Do you have anything more concrete? > **[How Democrats Suppress The Vote](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-democrats-suppress-the-vote/)** > > In the ongoing fight between Democrats and Republicans over election procedures like voter ID and early voting, the Democrats are supposedly the champions of hi… I googled democrats suppress vote and this was the first thing that came up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/poverty-apologists-apologetics/751287.md?page=10)