Power outages and surge protectors

Factual Questions
21

First, please learn a basic electrical concept called superposition. A spike passes right through a battery; is not absorbed. Unfortunately, many who make recommendation only hear what advertising implies. Do not first learn basic electrical concepts such as superposition.

Second, if that more expensive UPS does protection as described, well, what is inside all electronics? First line filters. Then AC electricity and that spike are converted to well over 300 DC volts. And filtered again. Then that power is made dirtiest - well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. Then superior regulators, filters, and galvanic isolation converts those high voltage spikes (dirtiest power) into low voltage, rock stable, DC volts to safely power semiconductors.

Anything that expensive UPS might do is first completely undone and then done better inside electronics. Again, best protection at electronics is already inside electronics.

This 120 volt sine wave UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Ideal power for electronics because (see paragraph 2) electronics contain robust protection. Electronics even clean ‘dirty’ UPS power (when in battery backup mode).

Third, concern is a transient that would blow through any UPS (a standard $100 one and that elite $1000 one recommended only on hearsay). That transient is why effective protection is earthed.

Best protection is one ‘whole house’ solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Provided by companies of integrity. Even sold in Loews and Home Depot since an informed layman can install it. Even rented by the electric company. A girl who reads a meter might install it. Best protection is that simple.

Why would anyone spend $100 or $1000 per appliance for lesser protection. A UPS is only recommended do what is already done better inside appliances.

Fourth, surges are rare. This anomaly may happen once every seven years. Does not happen when power is restored. Most who recommend a protector (as on the OP’s computer) or a UPS have no idea what its does. Even believe power restoration created surges - because that was a first thing an electrically naive friend said. Every useful answer comes with numbers. That expensive UPS was recommended for surges with numbers so tiny that electronics routinely convert that surge to and consume it as cleanest DC voltages.

Fifth, 300 consecutive surges could pass through a UPS before it even thought about reacting. Protection has always been about earthing something that does damage in microseconds and that costs about $1 per protected appliances. With numbers that says it protects even from direct lightning strikes (ie 50,000 amps).

Companies known by any guy for their integrity provide effective protectors. Iincluding Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, and General Electric. A Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) sells in Lowes and Home Depot for about $60. Belkin and APC are not listed. Near zero protectors (like a UPS) do not even have what is always required for effective protection. A low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground.

That is a ‘secondary’ protection layer. A ‘primary’ protection layer is not discussed. Informed consumer would move on to what actually does the protection (earth ground) and how to verify a ‘primary’ protection layer exists. And still, many are attached to a UPS … that does not even claim effective protection.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That has never changed no matter what half truths are promoted by advertising for ‘magic box’ plug-in solutions.

Blackout does not damage appliances. What does damage requires a completely different solution proven by over 100 years of science and experience. It is not provided by a plug-in UPS - as even specification numbers state. OP’s protector can also compromise protection inside his computer. What is that superior and existing protection? See paragraph 2 where existing robust protection is defined - with numbers.

Plenty of reasons why informed homeowners get products from companies with integrity.

22

Westom, why does the computer fuss for improper shut down? Why should I not just use a remote switch to control the wall plugs of my electronics to turn them off and on since, according to you, they are just fine being being controlled that way?

It invalidates the warranty on my $1500 TV and is warned against on other electronics and the computer really does not like it?

A good local ground, under 10 feet away, is all that is needed according to you.

Why does my equipment work just fine and neighbors around, loose their equipment when they do not protect it my way or at least pretty close to my way?

Splain please…

23

First, define ‘fuss’? Since no hardware is harmed if the nuclear power station suddenly goes down. Unexpected power loss means unsaved data is lost. Then a user is warned about what was at risk. Is that ‘fuss’?

Second, how does power loss affect any warranty? Especially when international design standards (even long before PCs existed) state that all low voltages down to zero cause no hardware damage. In fact, one says so in all capital letters on its chart: “No Damage Region”.

Third, it is not a local ground. And is not a safety ground in a wall receptacle. A ground for surge protection is single point earth ground. A utility demonstrates some examples of good, bad and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

Fourth, a typical surge is a connection from a cloud to earthboren charges maybe five miles away. That shortest electricaly connection is three miles down to earth and four miles through earth to those charges. The path down to and into earth maybe be incoming to all neighborhood appliances.

Are all damaged? Of course not. It is called electricity. That means it must have both an incoming and outgoing path to earth to do damage. That surge goes hunting via all appliances if not earthed at the service entrance. Which appliance(s) makes a best connection to earth. Only that appliance(s) is damaged. That appliance means a surge need not find earth via other appliances in that or other houses.

Also relevant are other parameters including geology. Some homes make a better connection to underground formations.

Meanwhile, nothing on a power cord is relevant. That surge makes that best connection with or without plug-in protectors. In some cases, a plug-in protector my make damage easier by earthing a surge through some nearby appliance not directly connected to that protector. Or by compromising better protection already inside every appliance.

Fifth, conclusion based only in observation (ie that appliance was on a protector and was not damaged) is classic junk science. We all learned this in school with examples such as spontaneous reproduction or bread breeds maggots. Neither is true. Both junk science conclusions justified only by observation.

All conclusions must be tempered by well proven knowledge. What was a best path from a cloud to earthborne charges? We know effective protection only exists when that current is earthed BEFORE entering a building. Over 100 years of well proven science and experience demonstrates it. A surge may be incoming to every appliance (powered on or off) in every house. But it only damages a few that make a better connection to distant earthborne charges. That well proven science that must be known before any protector can be recommended.

That current (and not blackouts) cause hardware damage. Protection, as demonstrated by Franklin 250 years ago, is always about how a potentially destructive electric current connects to earth.

24

Well, when the power is cut to my computer, at reconnect or reboot, it comes up in command line and wants me to chose how it restarts. (fuss)

Will you carry the warranty on a plasma. led 60" TV for me while I use no surge protection, APC to avoid power interruptions and use a wall switch to power up and down since all that according to you will not harm the TV.

I bet you won’t. You do not qualify your statements so a poster with no clue follows your advice and losses his desktop, TV, cable or satellite receiver/recorder, sound system and ignores all the literature/instruction they come since you know better? Ignore what the repair people tell him that he needed to do other stuff and there is no warranty now because he did not set it up or operate it properly.

I bet that you use the proper start & stop procedures for your equipment and do not just cut power at the wall when starting & stopping your equipment.

I wonder why since it is more trouble than a remote controlled switch and you know that if there is never a power surge, your use of the wall switch will cause no harm?

Why have I never seen a computer or TV recommend no power protection and that repeated pulling of the plug at the wall is OK, it won’t shorten the life of the unit or void the warranty?

I do not understand why I have never heard these claims before anywhere but have had the people repairing my stuff say that power protection is needed to get a full life from these electronics. Is it all a scam?

25

So, no hardware is harmed or even at risk. Unexpected power loss means unsaved data is lost. Then a user is warned about what was at risk. Data - not hardware. Your example agrees with what I posted. No hardware is at risk due to a blackout.

Power loss and power off (by its switch) are electrically same to hardware (including your TV). No warranty is voided if power is lost - by any means. If power loss causes hardware damage, that manufacturer has a major recall problem.

Why are computers not powered off by pulling the plug? Unsaved data can be lost. Shutdown is the saving of data - is not hardware protection. Otherwise you have cited that ‘damaged’ part. You don’t because no such damage exists.

‘Magic box’ protectors are also bogus. Xbox is quite clear about this. Microsoft recommends no protector on its power cord.

HP tech support says this:

Destructive surges are rare - maybe once every seven years. Hardware protection means a properly earthed protector at the service entrance. Then robust protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. That to protect from an anomaly that can cause damage. Power off does not cause hardware damage.

OP asked:

Yes. That adjacent protector can make damage easier. Especially if a ‘whole house’ protector does not exist.

Power off does not damage hardware. Loss of unsaved data is not hardware damage.

Power protection is needed where something useful can happen- at the service entrance. Plug-in protectors can even make damage easier if that ‘whole house’ solution does not exist.

26

You are just repeating yourself which I keep biting on so I bow out.

One thing, do you live in Florida and claim that destructive surges happen only on a 7 year average?

Have a good day…

27

Last night I programmed my computer
A thunderstorm started outside
A lightning bolt hit the main cable
Now all of my floppies are fried!
Bring back, bring back, oh, bring back my floppies to me, to me…

28

Why assume an ‘average’ is same everywhere? Second sentence said that number can vary significantly even in the same town. Learning is difficult if you only want to read to argue; by intentionally ignoring some statements.

Obviously FL has a higher percentage of surges. Obviously California and Britain have few events. Best protection in FL is also best protection in California and Britain. And costs less money.

If you have knowledge, then post that number for FL. Why refuse to share? Because you only know what advertising promotes? Advertising also does not discuss the most critical item for surge protection - single point earth ground.

Orange County FL suffered repeated damage to their 911 system. Direct lightning strikes now cause no damage. What did they do? They certainly did not waste money on a UPS or power strip protector. They also did not do what is so unreliable - unplug. They ignored hearsay from repairmen who only know what advertising taught them. That 911 System needed effective solutions. Item that defines protection (that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules) was fixed. They fixed earth grounds. Then nobody even knows a surge existed. That case study:

Why would anyone who lives in Florida also not know this? Why would anyone waste so much money on a UPS or power strip to do protection; that neither a UPS nor power strip provide? Why would anyone recommend a most unreliable solution - unplugging? Some people are fully attached only to a first thing told by advertising. Then deny incessantly when reality is provided - repeatedly.

Power interruption and restoration does not damage appliances. APC power strip adjacent to that computer could make damage easier if a best solution (a ‘whole house’ solution) is not earthed. Neither power strip nor UPS claim to protect hardware from potentially destructive surges. Power outage does not void a warranty. Reality does not change no matter what hearsay, advertising, and wild speculation promotes.

Surges can be created by tree rodents, linemen errors, wind, stray cars, or utility switching. So informed homeowners spend about $1 per appliance for best and properly earthed protection. Anyone in Florida’s lightning alley that does not have that best and well proven solution is denying a reality found in repeated expressions and in over 100 years of science and experience.

29

Stray cars?

30

If you read that article, they installed ring grounds and halo grounds and stuff like that, things that I mentioned upthread as being well beyond the budget for most household protection. For those that aren’t familiar with these terms, a ring ground is literally a ring of copper wire buried around the perimeter of your building. And we’re talking #2 or thicker wire here, which is very thick wire. This ain’t the stuff you buy at Home Depot. This stuff runs about $10 to $20 per foot. A halo ground is essentially the same thing, except that instead of being buried, the ring of wire is run around the perimeter of the roof, and that ring is attached to the building’s ground system using nice thick copper as well.

The way these work is that if there’s an incoming electromagnetic pulse (from lightning or a nuke blast), it wastes its energy inducing current into the ring which gets harmlessly shunted to earth ground, protecting the electronics inside the building. The halo ground additionally provides a higher point of entry into the ground system all around the building which gives the lightning an easier path to follow.

These are often combined with Ufer grounds, which is basically encasing copper grounds in the building concrete to make a much more rugged ground system. Ufer grounds were developed back in WWII by a guy named Herbert Ufer, and he was specifically trying to come up with a better grounding system for bomb storage vaults in Arizona. Over the years, pretty much any type of ground system that uses copper encased in concrete has come to be called an Ufer ground.

Faraday cages (metal cages that surround equipment) are also often used, as are lightning rods and downconductors to channel the lightning along a path where it can be shunted to earth ground while causing minimal damage.

I strongly suspect that the 911 center also employs rather expensive surge protector for the entire building and also use UPS systems with additional surge protection.

All of this stuff is way beyond the typical household budget, which makes me wonder why you thought it was relevant to a discussion about a trailer park and general household surge protection.

31

In every case - protection is always about earth ground. Facilities including 911 Centers, telco COs, munitions dumps, etc will all spend massively on earth ground to get tiny more protection. Because - and the relevant point - a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Do not totally miss the point. They did not spend massively on protectors. Effective protectors are only connecting devices to what does protection - earth ground. Ineffective protectors do not have and will not discuss what does protection - earth ground. We were all taught about what does protection in primary school science. Ben Franklin’s lightning rod works because it connects to earth ground.

Assuming they are using expensive protectors is misleading. Protectors used in facilities such as COs are expensive because each incoming line needs / has a less than $1 protector. With tens of thousands of incoming wires, that is tens of thousands of dollars. They also do not waste money on $20 or $85 plug-in protectors. They need protection - do not want ineffective protectors.

In every case study, little discussion is of protectors. Most discussed component in every protection system (for a structure or for its internal appliances) is earth ground. Why do they not discuss protectors in that case study? Protectors do not define quality of protection. Earth ground does. As that case study demonstrates: a protector is only as effective as its connection to and quality of earth ground.

32

They did discuss protectors in that article. Apparently you aren’t familiar with the term TVSS (Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor).

Here’s a direct quote from the article:

So basically they installed surge suppressors all over the place.

And again, they are protecting their entire building (and their communication antennas) from direct lightning strikes, and probably spent upwards of a million dollars to do so. Installing ring grounds and halo grounds and Ufer grounds isn’t cheap. Most folks aren’t going to install these sorts of things in their home. How you think this has any bearing at all to a discussion of trailer park power and home surge suppressors still baffles me.

33

Exactly. They did not install lots of TVSS (also called SPDs). They fixed what made TVSS ineffective. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Best protection for household appliances means the entire building must be protected. Once that surge is all but invited inside, then nothing can stop a destructive hunt for earth ground. Homeowners can chieve same for about $1 per protected appliance. By simply earthing a ‘whole house’ protector. And confirming the ‘whole house’ protection installed for free by a TV cable and telephone company is also properly earth to that same earthing electrode.

In every case, protection is always about the only item that does the protection - earth ground. Effective protectors are connecting devices to what does the protection. That is, by far, best and a least expensive solution for all homes - even if all receptacle are only two prong - no safety ground.

34

Repeating this quote from the article. It says exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

And once again, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The grounding scheme of a 911 center is much more rugged and expensive than anything used in a typical residential service.

This is getting silly. I’m going to follow GusNSpot and bow out now.

35

Yeah, like I said a typical consumer UPS will offer a reasonably good level of surge protection plus battery backup for a home user at a cost that’s affordable, it’s a legitimate option for a guy in a trailer worried about power issues. It’s pretty hilarious that the thread went from a home computer in a trailer to keeping a 911 center operating after a lightning strike, I’m sure the power protection setup in the linked article costs much more than the OP’s entire residence, and possibly more than the whole mobile home park.

36

Perhaps. Our insurance company recently told us the value of our place, for insurance purposes, is something like $97,000.00.

37

I would be very surprised if the system described in that paper cost less than six figures, usually when a call center for 911 makes the news the total price is in the millions.

38

Poking around on google, it looks like they spent $150,000 to install that ground system.

39

That’s cheaper than I thought, but still more expensive than Dougie’s place :slight_smile:

40

Yeah, but who can live in a ground system? :slight_smile: