# Powerful article! - "Goodbye to All That: Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179 "2011-09-04T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/81 "2011-09-05T02:18:25Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Practically speaking, I think the solution is that everyone will vote and everyone should pay **some** non-trivial income tax. Did I say devestating anywhere? > > If I did, sorry. I don’t think you truly understand of thin of a financial knife’s edge some of the poor walk. How do you plan to take nontrivial taxes out of someone barely scrapping by without devastating them financially? Also,do you feel the unemployed shouldn’t vote? If not how do you intend to collect nontrivial income tax on nothing? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/82 "2011-09-05T02:38:44Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Of course, my liege. How could I have been so neglectful? Stop right there. Do you agree or disagree with me that it would be most conducive to progress to explain the meaning of the phrase? If you agree, then why call me, sarcastically, a “liege,” for reminding you of the very thing you already agree with? If you disagree, then why comply with my request at all? ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/83 "2011-09-05T04:10:02Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I believe in something significantly closer to that than our current system, but that gets kind of OT. I mentioned the perverse incentives that are created by allowing people who have NO skin in the game to have EXACTLY the same vote as those who have lots of skin, only because he was protesting a little too much about the Republicans pointing out the obvious and fairly shocking fact that half of voters have no skin in the federal game – a statistic that Dems (and I guess RINOs like this guy) apparently feel very defensive about. I completely disagree that people who pay no taxes have no skin in the game. Say Bob pays $1000 in taxes, and Jim gets so many tax credits that he actually receives a check for $200 from the IRS. Now say the US govt needs $50 more next year. They can either take more from Bob next year, or give less to Jim next year (or a combination of the two). However, as far as Jim and Bob are concerned, they are both facing a potential of $50 less next year. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/84 "2011-09-05T04:47:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You’ve outclassed 99% of the right-wingers on this Board. Keep the partisan shots to the politics and politicians and don’t start laying snide remarks on other posters of the SDMB. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/85 "2011-09-05T04:54:31Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > But they are. They’re getting away with having the same vote that people who pay federal income tax do in federal elections. Whether or not your assertions about who pays taxes or not is true (if someone could tell this earner of \<$18,000 a year how to not pay any taxes, I’ll give you 1,000 dollars. Really, it’d be worth that much to me.), who said that income tax payers are the only citizens who deserve the vote? Let’s not let anyone who isn’t employed vote. Sounds like good public policy to me! **ETA:** as I read on, I see that fortunately other people picked up on this as well. Sorry for the repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/86 "2011-09-05T07:59:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Did anyone lefty read something they didn’t already know? And if anyone righty missed it, its most likely because you didn’t pay attention to us bitching about it More pernicious than that; I think. It’s not that they don’t pay attention - they pay almost more attention to what the opposition is saying than what their own do. They even come armed with factoids and bullet points or pre-digested debate to oppose it ! Truth is, thanks to the rabid polarization strategy, the “low information voter” (a.k.a simple farmers, people of the land, the common clay of the West) will assume that whatever it is or how well structured, reasoned, cited and proven, if it comes from the Left it’s a damned lie. Not in small part because half the time, if it comes from the Right it actually \*is - \*but then it’s OK to lie, cheat and deceive when it’s for a good cause. Doesn’t Government do it with via the CIA ? So there. Right wingers the world over have spread the pervasive notion that not only are Machiavelian politics, übercynical ploys and “the end justifies the means” A-OK, but that people who \*don’t \*engage in them are weak and/or fools. Even the word “idealist” has become a derisive jibe. From this, through the misleading assumption/assertion denounced in the article that both parties are the same and do the same things, to “we do it, therefore they must do it to”. Thus, if an Other says it, it must be misdirection. And if it’s misdirection, then the opposite must be true, no matter if the observable facts belie this conclusion. The facts are stinkin’ liberal Commies anyhow 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/87 "2011-09-05T20:01:39Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Also,do you feel the unemployed shouldn’t vote? In a world where the federal government is a spending/wealth redistribution machine, as opposed to what the Founders envisioned (an entity that would defend the borders, coin money, and deliver the mail, and not much else) – no, why should non-payers get a say in where (other people’s) money gets redistributed? Shrink the government’s spending/redistribution role back to its historical/constitutional role – my answer might (or might not) be different. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/88 "2011-09-05T20:23:34Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > In a world where the federal government is a spending/wealth redistribution machine, as opposed to what the Founders envisioned (an entity that would defend the borders, coin money, and deliver the mail, and not much else) – no, why should non-payers get a say in where (other people’s) money gets redistributed? > > Shrink the government’s spending/redistribution role back to its historical/constitutional role – my answer might (or might not) be different. I have to say, that’s a disturbing opinion. If your employer goes out of business through no fault of your own, you lose your vote until you can find another employer? Suppose the company failed because of some government policy? Suppose you want to vote the bastards responsible for that policy, and therefore your loss of a job, out of office? Tough shit by your way of doing things. Suppose I’m a legislator and I notice that, for whatever reasons, the employees of a certain industry tend to vote against my party? It’s then in my self interest to do what I can to hurt that industry and thus eliminate as many of those votes as I can by putting those employees out of work. You don’t see the problem with that? Also, how do you define unemployed for your purposes? Do idle rich trust babies get to vote? They’re not employed. Do retired people get to vote? Do politicians who are spending all of their time campaigning (and thus aren’t employed) get to vote? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/89 "2011-09-05T20:31:01Z")
Well, there is that pesky part about promoting the general welfare. Now, in my dictionary, “promote” is an active verb, it is an effort, energy is expended towards the goal of the general welfare. Otherwise, it might say “preserve” the general welfare. Then, of course, there is the fact that we have improvised our way to a consumerist economy. Got my gripes about that, but it is what it is, and if the consumer has no money, there is no economy. And finally, without some effort towards economic equality, what we are likely to end up with is a bunch of enclaves, er, “gated communities” surrounded by vast populations of surly peasants. The Founders were geniuses at ambiguity, but its hard to imagine that’s what they had in mind. At any rate, they never tweeted about it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/90 "2011-09-05T21:24:32Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > In a world where the federal government is a spending/wealth redistribution machine, as opposed to what the Founders envisioned (an entity that would defend the borders, coin money, and deliver the mail, and not much else) – no, why should non-payers get a say in where (other people’s) money gets redistributed? Why should non-voters have to obey laws they had no say in legislating? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/91 "2011-09-05T21:28:04Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > In a world where the federal government is a spending/wealth redistribution machine, as opposed to what the Founders envisioned (an entity that would defend the borders, coin money, and deliver the mail, and not much else) – no, why should non-payers get a say in where (other people’s) money gets redistributed? > > Shrink the government’s spending/redistribution role back to its historical/constitutional role – my answer might (or might not) be different. Here’s their own words: > [@](#): > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, The poor are among the governed. The poor are in the class of all men. You would strip them of their American rights to have a voice in that consent. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/92 "2011-09-05T21:30:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why should non-voters have to obey laws they had no say in legislating? Children have to obey the law. Children are not entitled to vote just because of that. Obeying the law is the threshold minimum condition for living in an ordered society. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/93 "2011-09-05T21:34:31Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Children have to obey the law. Children are not entitled to vote just because of that. Obeying the law is the threshold minimum condition for living in an ordered society. So anyone who’s ever been unemployed is a child, not an adult man or woman.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/94 "2011-09-05T21:51:52Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Obeying the law is the threshold minimum condition for living in an ordered society. So is voting. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/95 "2011-09-05T21:57:13Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So anyone who’s ever been unemployed is a child, not an adult man or woman.:dubious: Nope. The point that proves the “non voters don’t have to obey the law” notion to be a red herring is that we already have (several actually) large classes of people who everyone agrees need to obey the law (children, aliens, felons), and everyone agrees do not thereby automatically enjoy the right to vote. Having one additional category (non-payers) is not, therefore, the stretch that the strawman argument attempted to portray it as. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/96 "2011-09-05T22:01:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So is voting. So no ordered society existed in the United States until 1960? Or in Victorian England? Or in Rome? The problem with the fallacy of equating the need to obey the law with the right to vote is that the concept of a universal rule of law predates by hundreds or thousands of years the absolutist version of universal suffrage (and as I noted, suffrage still is not truly, nor does anyone seriously argue it should be, universal as to all 300 million people living in the U.S. at any given moment). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/97 "2011-09-05T22:02:55Z")
Have we forgotten one of the founding principles of this country: No representation without taxation! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/98 "2011-09-05T22:19:54Z")
Huerta, why do you hate America so much? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/99 "2011-09-05T22:25:55Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > So no ordered society existed in the United States until 1960? > > Or in Victorian England? > > Or in Rome? Would you have liked to live as one of the disenfranchised in Victorian England ? Or in Rome ? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/100 "2011-09-05T22:33:18Z")
**Huerta** : I think you’ve painted yourself into a corner, and the best thing is to admit an error. While your point has some merit (an expansive federal government being well beyond the scope of what the founders envisioned), the cure you propose is worse than the disease. A large number of people simply cannot afford to pay income tax, and disenfranchising them will likely lead to literal riots in the streets. That does not serve the goal of created a “ordered” society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179.md?page=6)