# Powerful article! - "Goodbye to All That: Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179 "2011-09-04T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/101 "2011-09-05T22:34:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Would you have liked to live as one of the disenfranchised in Victorian England ? Or in Rome ? Eye on the ball. I brought those examples up only in the context of refuting a weak argument that if someone doesn’t have the vote, he doesn’t have to obey the law. I demonstrated that this was historically demonstrably a red herring. To answer your question, even though it’s not on point: Depends. I read a biography of the Duchess of Devonshire. She didn’t have the vote. She seems to have enjoyed herself pretty well. I imagine I’d try to position myself (first and foremost, by getting a good job) so that the lack of a vote did not make my life unduly unpleasant (just as having a “vote” in North Korea, which they do, does not render life unduly pleasant). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/102 "2011-09-05T22:37:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A large number of people simply cannot afford to pay income tax, and disenfranchising them will likely lead to literal riots in the streets. That does not serve the goal of created a “ordered” society. 50% of them? Can’t pay **anything**? You’ll forgive my skepticism. My point is rhetorical though there are multiple ways (which could be combined) to address the problem: broaden the tax base, shift taxation from penalizing earned income to some other index, reduce the role/cost of government, and, yes, consider something like a poll tax. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/103 "2011-09-05T22:39:24Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > So no ordered society existed in the United States until 1960? > > Or in Victorian England? > > Or in Rome? That is correct. By today’s standards, there was no ordered society when any adult citizens were prevented from voting. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/104 "2011-09-05T22:55:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That is correct. By today’s standards, there was no ordered society when any adult citizens were prevented from voting. I think you typed “today’s” where you meant to type “my.” But . . . why only adults? Why only citizens (if I’m visiting from Uzbekistan on election day, I’m subject to all U.S. laws – I should **totally** be allowed to vote!)? You’re also reading “ordered” to mean “most appealing to [you].” When I or others use it, we mean a society in which the rule of law prevails (through human history, by far the biggest problem has not been casting a vote, but preventing some other guy or tribe or country from raping or murdering you), there’s not widespread starvation, crime, or pandemics, government is not overtly corrupt, the trains run on time. None of that requires 100% suffrage, desirable though that may be to you. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/105 "2011-09-05T23:02:56Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > You’re also reading “ordered” to mean “most appealing to [you].” As are you. Your laws are derived not from the governed, but from the propertied. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/106 "2011-09-05T23:04:40Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > 50% of them? Can’t pay **anything**? You’ll forgive my skepticism. I never said 50%. I haven’t looked at the numbers closely, but I could easily seeing it being at least 20%. And that is a “large number”, which is what I did say. > [@](#): > > My point is rhetorical though there are multiple ways (which could be combined) to address the problem: broaden the tax base, shift taxation from penalizing earned income to some other index, reduce the role/cost of government, and, yes, consider something like a poll tax. OK. Like I said, revoking the franchise should not be on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/107 "2011-09-05T23:09:49Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Eye on the ball. I brought those examples up only in the context of refuting a weak argument that if someone doesn’t have the vote, he doesn’t have to obey the law. I demonstrated that this was historically demonstrably a red herring. Point of order, sir ! You offered these examples as material proof that there were ordered societies before there was universal suffrage. I’ll grant you that much. I mean, while you’re at it you could also point to France or England circa 1215, where the average cack-handed peasant did not have the vote, did not even know what a vote was or have the notion that he could in any way influence government - but still had to obey the law, OR ELSE. The gist of my point was that those societies were ordered in a way that we arrogant and cocksure moderners think were, not to put too fine a point on it, mondo fucked up to the max. To the point that they led to widespread social unrest & upheaval, bloodshed and, well, in a nutshell, modern society. We’ve learned, we’ve moved onward and upward. As such, pointing to them as justification for your modest proposal doesn’t really help as much as you might think. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/108 "2011-09-05T23:16:04Z")
The poor should have their taxes raised, after all they escape the estate taxes which kick in at over 1mill. They don’t have to pay this and the top 12 percent do. How can that be fair? How many poor people are escaping the capital gains tax? Here we go again. The poor burdened wealthy have to pay it and the poor get away again. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/109 "2011-09-05T23:18:21Z")
> [@hocuspocusfocus](#): > > Hong Kong - capitalist, free market > You made reference to these countries: > Singapore - capitalist, free market > Australia - capitalist, free market > New Zealand - capitalist, free market > Switzerland - capitalist, free market > Canada - capitalist, free market > Ireland - capitalist, free market > Denmark - capitalist, free market > United States - socialist, not free market > Bahrain - capitalist, free market > > No I have proved that those countries are better at capitalism and free market competition which create surpluses that they are then at liberty to spend on anything they want. And in those countries everyone works. I don’t see a Marxist/Socialist country in the list except maybe the United States under Obama where 50% of the working age population don’t work. 25% of whom want to work but do to Obama, can’t find a job. Wait, by what measure are Canada and Denmark more free-market-capitalist than the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/110 "2011-09-05T23:26:05Z")
[QUOTE=Huerta88] . . . (putting aside that well-off people pay in a lot more than they may get out, and vice versa). [/QUOTE] > [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not going to get into most of the partisan bickering that this thread is going to promote, but this statement is inaccurate. **tomndebb** , sorry but the original statement is absolutely correct. It is usually a good idea to do some research before you try to correct people. Familiarize yourself with [http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/social-security-medicare-benefits-over-lifetime.pdf](http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/social-security-medicare-benefits-over-lifetime.pdf) . Two-earner couple with one spouse earning an average wage ($43,500 in 2011) and one earning a low wage ($19,500 in 2011) retiring in 2011 will get back 109% of their Social Security taxes. Two-earner couple with one spouse earning a high wage ($69,600 in 2011) and one earning an average wage ($43,500 in 2011) will get back 87% of their Social Security taxes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/111 "2011-09-05T23:30:24Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Of course, my liege. How could I have been so neglectful? > > As the two responses above me already have indicated, it means the number of people over the age of 16 who are either working or actively seeking work. It does not include everyone under 16, and many if not most retirees, permanently disabled people who cannot work, and wealthy heirs and heiresses who just don’t feel like working. It also includes many high school and college students. > > The number of 83,941,000 is the sum total of people not in the workforce. They are not employed, but are not unemployed. Where does it classify the discouraged, the no-longer-seeking-work? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/112 "2011-09-05T23:31:22Z")
> [@erez](#): > > **tomndebb** , sorry but the original statement is absolutely correct. It is usually a good idea to do some research before you try to correct people. Familiarize yourself with [http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/social-security-medicare-benefits-over-lifetime.pdf](http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/social-security-medicare-benefits-over-lifetime.pdf) . Two-earner couple with one spouse earning an average wage ($43,500 in 2011) and one earning a low wage ($19,500 in 2011) retiring in 2011 will get back 109% of their Social Security taxes. Two-earner couple with one spouse earning a high wage ($69,600 in 2011) and one earning an average wage ($43,500 in 2011) will get back 87% of their Social Security taxes. You missed the point. The wealthy benefit from our system of laws more than the poor, because they have more to lose. That is why they pay more. Taxes are the price of civilization. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/113 "2011-09-05T23:39:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You missed the point. The wealthy benefit from our system of laws more than the poor, because they have more to lose. That is why they pay more. Taxes are the price of civilization. Umm, yeah, that is exactly what Huerta88 and tomndebb were talking about. Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/114 "2011-09-05T23:42:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wait, by what measure are Canada and Denmark more free-market-capitalist than the U.S.? Is it really so difficult to actually go to the source, click through and see why for yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/115 "2011-09-05T23:45:43Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You missed the point. The wealthy benefit from our system of laws more than the poor, because they have more to lose. That is why they pay more. Taxes are the price of civilization. You **really** missed the point. **Tom** made the bald assertion that SS tax was always regressive. I knew (and **erez** ’s link confirmed – hat tip for that) that they are very often progressive/redistributive. (I was too lazy to correct **Tom** , mostly because of the drive-by nature of his contribution). “Taxes are the price of civilization.” Then everyone who enjoys the benefits of civilization should pay every tax pro rata. Half the population should not be exempted from a major tax (the income tax). As for the brand-new argument that the rich get more out of the rule of law – the rich get less, because they can hire private security, pay for their own healthcare, attend private schools. We could do this all night. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/116 "2011-09-05T23:52:14Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Half the population should not be exempted from a major tax (the income tax). Then you agree, the welthy should not be exempted from paying payroll taxes on their income over $107,000? Fair’s fair. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/117 "2011-09-06T00:40:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, there isn’t a lot of news in that catalog of sins, is there? I suppose I ought to be pleased that he has stumbled towards the light out of darkness, but he sure seemed to take his time about it. Twenty eight years is a damned long “oopsy!” > > But most all of this has been hashed out more than once, there are no startling revelations here, though the tone seems to indicate the astonishment of the recently sober. I’m not even shocked at the cynicism he highlights, the cold manipulation of politics. I mean, after Rove? And he correctly identifies the problem with the batshit fringe, but, who doesn’t? > > Did anyone lefty read something they didn’t already know? And if anyone righty missed it, its most likely because you didn’t pay attention to us bitching about it > > Still, if he was going to fall of his mule on the way to Damascus, one has to wish he had started out sooner. Well to be fair he made it clear that he retired out of pure self-interest, not out of some political change of heart. He said the Republicans were clearly intent on gutting the federal government, and as part of that they meant to dismantle federal workers’ benefits, including their retirement. And so he left while he still had a generous retirement plan to retire with. In short, he was happy to be a Republican operative while they were goring other people’s oxen, but when it became HIS ox that was endangered, the light dawned! I’m sure a lot of Republican lower-end people are like that … they know they are doing wrong, but the money is so rewarding! ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/118 "2011-09-06T00:44:20Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > “Taxes are the price of civilization.” Then everyone who enjoys the benefits of civilization should pay every tax pro rata. I’ll believe you are sincere when you include things like estate taxes and capital gains taxes as needing to be included 1:1 in equalizing “pro rata” taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/119 "2011-09-06T01:00:11Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I’ll believe you are sincere when you include things like estate taxes and capital gains taxes as needing to be included 1:1 in equalizing “pro rata” taxes. I don’t follow. These are generally taxes paid mostly or solely by well-off people. Should we impose a small death tax on everyone? Sure, go right ahead, if we do on anyone. Is that what you mean? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/120 "2011-09-06T01:11:01Z")
What do you mean by “death tax”? I am not familiar with the term being used honestly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179.md?page=7)