# Powerful article! - "Goodbye to All That: Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179 "2011-09-04T19:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/141 "2011-09-06T14:36:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It isn’t the dying that triggers it, it’s that the heirs have received massive income. And don’t give me that “double taxation” crap. Much of what the heirs get has never been taxed a nickel in the first place. Gotrocks Sr. buys 1000 shares of Acme at $1 each, when he dies 40 years later they’re worth $1000 each. His $1000 investment is now worth $1,000,000. Never having sold the stock, he never paid tax on the $999,000 gain. So Gotrocks Jr. gets $1,000,000 worth of stock when dear daddy dies. This is income to him, so junior should pay tax on it. But you don’t understand! This is a _ **DEATH** _ tax, probably for a death brought on by an _ **OBAMACARE DEATH PANEL.** _ And… and…, it hurts family farms. And… and… it destroys the good Christian Capitalist Moral Fiber of the Yooo-nited States of America (the government of which we despise, by the way). Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. :o ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/142 "2011-09-06T14:41:41Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > (the government of which we despise, by the way). Shouldn’t that be “gubmint?” ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/143 "2011-09-06T14:42:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Shouldn’t that be “gubmint?” I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/144 "2011-09-06T14:43:21Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But you don’t understand! This is a _ **DEATH** _ tax, probably for a death brought on by an _ **OBAMACARE DEATH PANEL.** _ And… and…, it hurts family farms. And… and… it destroys the good Christian Capitalist Moral Fiber of the Yooo-nited States of America (the government of which we despise, by the way). > > Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. :o My favorite laugh out loud moment of right wingnuttery regarding the estate tax was when [Republicans scoured the Gulf states looking for wealthy corpses in the wake of Kartina.](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1106213,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/145 "2011-09-06T14:44:33Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Curious to know how you reconcile this with my readily-available opposition to the whole Iraq war, which is all out there and which was in line with my non alliance with the GOP mainline, petro-fueled, agenda. Under what circumstances would that need to be reconciled with anything? It’s a non sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/146 "2011-09-06T14:47:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > My favorite laugh out loud moment of right wingnuttery regarding the estate tax was when [Republicans scoured the Gulf states looking for wealthy corpses in the wake of Kartina.](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1106213,00.html) I’d like to say that that’s a new low, but it’s not. It’s standard operating procedure. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/147 "2011-09-06T16:02:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Like Mike Lofgren, I am a retired Congressional staffer who worked for a House Member from 1985 until January of this year. Unlike Lofgren, I did not retire voluntarily; my boss, a moderate Democrat, lost his race for re-election last November. I found myself agreeing with virtually everything in Mike’s article and immediately forwarded it to a bunch of my friends, some of whom remain working on the Hill. > > **Privately, many of us who have worked in Congress since before the Clinton Administration have been complaining about the loss of the respect for the institution by the Members who were elected to serve their constituents through the institution.** I don’t think people realize how fragile democracy really is. The 2012 campaign is currently looking to be the final nail in the coffin unless people start to understand what is going on. > > One thing that especially resonated with me about Mike’s piece is the importance of “low information” voters. The mainstream media absolutely fails to understand how little attention average Americans really pay to what goes on in all forms of government. **During our 2008 race, our pollster taught me (hard to believe it took me 24 years to learn this) that the average voter spends only 5 minutes thinking about for whom to vote for Congress.** All the millions of dollars of TV ads, all the thousands of robo-calls and door-knocks, and it all comes down to having a message that will stick in the voters’ minds during the 5 minutes before they walk into the voting booth. > > The media likes to call this group “independents,” which implies that they think so long and deeply about issues that they refuse to be constrained by the philosophy of either party. There may be a couple of people out there who fit that definition, but those are not the persuadable voters campaigns are trying to capture. Every campaign is trying to develop its candidate into an easy-to-remember slogan that makes him or her more appealing than the other guy. Actually, because negative campaigning is so effective, they are more often trying to portray the opponent as more objectionable (“I guess I’ll vote for the crook because at least he won’t slash my Medicare”). > **['People Don't Realize How Fragile Democracy Really Is'](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/09/people-dont-realize-how-fragile-democracy-really-is/244559/)** > > Are "independent" voters really just people who don't know very much? (emphasis mine) I’m seeing some raging “independents” in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/148 "2011-09-06T19:05:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > And don’t give me that “double taxation” crap. Much of what the heirs get has never been taxed a nickel in the first place. So they were investing in what, 501(c)(3) companies that didn’t have to pay any tax before netting out their earnings? You do know that any business you invest in has to pay taxes, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/149 "2011-09-06T19:10:00Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > So they were investing in what, 501(c)(3) companies that didn’t have to pay any tax before netting out their earnings? > > You do know that any business you invest in has to pay taxes, right? What does that have to do with paying taxes on income from dividends and capital gains? It’s income; it should be taxed. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/150 "2011-09-06T19:10:13Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > ['People Don't Realize How Fragile Democracy Really Is' - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/09/people-dont-realize-how-fragile-democracy-really-is/244559/) > (emphasis mine) > > I’m seeing some raging “independents” in this thread. The story of this staffer is a big dog-bites-man moment. As others have noted, he seems like a run of the mill scumbag who took his money while he could despite the fact that the only congressman he could find to hire him was from a party he didn’t personally fall in line with to begin with. No true believer. If you’ve ever met any Hill staffers, this is common. I got invited to a GOP event during the odious GWB years. I went for the free food, fearing I’d be subjected to a lot of neocon ideologues. I needn’t have worried. The one thing that struck me was the impression that any one of these staffers would have crossed the aisle for an office that was five square feet bigger, or to become the junior assistant to the vice secretary of the subcommittee on energy administration. They skewed heavily toward the contemptible, which isn’t surprising when you consider what would make someone want to be a lackey to a generally-scummy politician. So this guy’s now a turncoat? Hardly newsworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/151 "2011-09-06T19:13:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What does that have to do with paying taxes on income from dividends and capital gains? It’s income; it should be taxed. This is what makes it “double taxation,” which is how I rightly referred to it: A corporation comes up with a good idea or product. As a result, it generates earnings and its stock appreciates. It pays takes on those earnings and appreciation. Then the stockholder is asked to pay taxes reflective of the exact same event (the successful idea or product) that the corporation already paid for when he sells his appreciated stock. Ergo, double taxation. You may think it’s a great idea (Hell, triple! Quadruple!), but it’s not not double taxation. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/152 "2011-09-06T19:19:07Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > A corporation comes up with a good idea or product. As a result, it generates earnings and its stock appreciates. It pays takes on those earnings and appreciation. Because the law recognizes a corporation as a person, which has earned income, which is taxed by the federal government. > [@](#): > > Then the stockholder is asked to pay taxes… Because he is a person who has earned income. No double taxation. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/153 "2011-09-06T19:35:12Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > The story of this staffer is a big dog-bites-man moment. As others have noted, he seems like a run of the mill scumbag who took his money while he could despite the fact that the only congressman he could find to hire him was from a party he didn’t personally fall in line with to begin with. No true believer. > > If you’ve ever met any Hill staffers, this is common. I got invited to a GOP event during the odious GWB years. I went for the free food, fearing I’d be subjected to a lot of neocon ideologues. I needn’t have worried. The one thing that struck me was the impression that any one of these staffers would have crossed the aisle for an office that was five square feet bigger, or to become the junior assistant to the vice secretary of the subcommittee on energy administration. They skewed heavily toward the contemptible, which isn’t surprising when you consider what would make someone want to be a lackey to a generally-scummy politician. So this guy’s now a turncoat? Hardly newsworthy. He’s not a “true believer,” so we can safely discount what he says, is that it? You have to drink the kool-aid to have any credibility? Mike Lofgren’s job was focused on defense and budget issues, he didn’t need to buy into the entire conservative agenda to do his job. If you feel the GWB years were so odious, then what do you care if a staffer wants to call out the Republicans for their nihilism and cynicism? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/154 "2011-09-06T19:57:51Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > This is what makes it “double taxation,” which is how I rightly referred to it: > > A corporation comes up with a good idea or product. As a result, it generates earnings and its stock appreciates. It pays takes on those earnings and appreciation. > > Then the stockholder is asked to pay taxes reflective of the exact same event (the successful idea or product) that the corporation already paid for when he sells his appreciated stock. Ergo, double taxation. > > You may think it’s a great idea (Hell, triple! Quadruple!), but it’s not not double taxation. When a business purchases raw materials, and creates a good for sale, at the time of sale (assuming the sale of said good creates profit for the company and the company does not possess the clout/lobbyist influence/tax attorney staffing to avoid it) taxation occurs. When a consumer buys the good (created by the same event that allowed the good or purchase to be created from said raw materials), sales taxes are applied. OMG Double Taxation! Funny, that particular instance of double taxation seems to not generate as much vitriol among the conservatives that I have heard discuss the relationship between creation of goods and the profitable monetization of same. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that consumption taxes are quite popular as a mechanism to raise revenue for national government among that particular cohort. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/155 "2011-09-06T20:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > In fact, I’d be willing to bet that consumption taxes are quite popular as a mechanism to raise revenue for national government among that particular cohort. Were you under the impression that sales taxes funded national government? If so, you are quite wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/156 "2011-09-06T20:13:10Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > This is what makes it “double taxation,” which is how I rightly referred to it: > > A corporation comes up with a good idea or product. As a result, it generates earnings and its stock appreciates. It pays takes on those earnings and appreciation. > > Then the stockholder is asked to pay taxes reflective of the exact same event (the successful idea or product) that the corporation already paid for when he sells his appreciated stock. Ergo, double taxation. > > You may think it’s a great idea (Hell, triple! Quadruple!), but it’s not not double taxation. Can you explain what’s wrong with double taxation? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/157 "2011-09-06T20:17:00Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Were you under the impression that sales taxes funded national government? > > If so, you are quite wrong. You’ll be glad to know that this is not my impression, then. My impression is that many on the right seem to bring up the proposition of value-added taxes as an acceptable revenue source, whereas income taxes and capital gains taxes are all but called treasonous, socialistic, communistic, naziist, and Kenyan. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/158 "2011-09-06T20:34:28Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > I don’t think that’s quite right — at least if the second “Vote by Education” breakdown, no college degree v. college degree, is correct. That seems to indicate that neither Kerry nor Bush were favored among college graduates. Bush, however, _was_ favored among those without a college degree. Well it’s only fair that grad students should be counted twice in the stats, after all better educated people should have more votes than the non-college people! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/159 "2011-09-06T20:37:12Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > This is what makes it “double taxation,” which is how I rightly referred to it: > > A corporation comes up with a good idea or product. As a result, it generates earnings and its stock appreciates. It pays takes on those earnings and appreciation. > > Then the stockholder is asked to pay taxes reflective of the exact same event (the successful idea or product) that the corporation already paid for when he sells his appreciated stock. Ergo, double taxation. > > You may think it’s a great idea (Hell, triple! Quadruple!), but it’s not not double taxation. The stockholder is different than the corporation. The money he’s getting is brand new to him. The tax is new and singular ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179/160 "2011-09-06T20:37:18Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Can you explain what’s wrong with double taxation? Nothing’s wrong with it per se. As I noted above, advocating for double, or triple, or quadruple, taxation is fine, as a policy proposition. I don’t agree with it, but I recognize it as a policy. The reason I brought it up was in response to vociferous criticism that there was no rationale other than favoring “the rich” for taxing capital gains or dividends at anything other than the marginal income tax rate. My point is that wages are in some sense “new” money, at least different enough to money that taxes have already been paid for (dividends, cap. gains) to be one plausible basis for treating cap gains different from wages (I anticipate and acknowledge the argument that your employer may have paid taxes itself, but it’s a little different because employee salaries offset to gross income). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/powerful-article-goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/595179.md?page=9)