# POW's like Stockdale and McCain caused themselves harm for no good reason **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464 "2008-05-15T17:47:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/81 "2008-05-16T03:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] for a bullshit cause like Vietnam? Fuck that. I’ll sell that out like a bag of loose joints. [/QUOTE] Back then they didn’t have the benefit of 40 years of historical perspective. There were legitimate arguments that we were preserving our way of life. They turned out to be wrong, of course, but no one could have known that for sure yet. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/82 "2008-05-16T03:45:00Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Back then they didn’t have the benefit of 40 years of historical perspective. There were legitimate arguments that we were preserving our way of life. They turned out to be wrong, of course, but no one could have known that for sure yet. [/QUOTE] I was alive during Vietnam. Everyone knew the arguments were bullshit at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/83 "2008-05-16T03:47:38Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Perhaps **Diogenes** ’s “personal code” is toughness and stubbornness on a message board, with very little personal cost. When the situation involves actual personal injury, **Diogenes** would most likely behave in the most craven way possible, signing a false confession in triplicate before they laid a finger on him. [/QUOTE] I’m sure you’d be a rock under torture. I don’t know how much I could take (and hope to God I never find out), but I’m not going to delude myself that I’d be any kind of hero. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/84 "2008-05-16T03:54:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I was alive during Vietnam. Everyone knew the arguments were bullshit at the time. [/QUOTE] Really? _[Everyone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_majority)?_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/85 "2008-05-16T04:02:06Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Really? _[Everyone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_majority)?_ [/QUOTE] There were morons then just like there are morons now. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/86 "2008-05-16T04:54:09Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] All kidding aside, if you can’t understand why they would resist the enemy, and support their fellow countrymen imprisoned with them, I don’t know how anyone is going to be able to explain it to you. [/QUOTE] It appears **spifflog** was correct way back in post 4. Thread should have been closed right then. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/87 "2008-05-16T04:54:33Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I’m sure you’d be a rock under torture. I don’t know how much I could take (and hope to God I never find out), but I’m not going to delude myself that I’d be any kind of hero. [/QUOTE] I don’t know how long I could hold out. But I would hold out until I couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/88 "2008-05-16T04:57:01Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] There were morons then just like there are morons now. [/QUOTE] Oh, you meant everyone who was a True Scotsman. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/89 "2008-05-16T05:12:45Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Oh, you meant everyone who was a True Scotsman. [/QUOTE] So the word “everyone” can only be taken literally, huh? Look, the point is that the stupidity of Vietnam is not something that was only recognized in retrospect, 40 years later. It was quite well known to be a debacle at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/90 "2008-05-16T05:16:31Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I don’t know how long I could hold out. But I would hold out until I couldn’t. [/QUOTE] I would need a better reason than the misbegotten justifications for Vietnam. There’s no shame in selling out a bullshit cause, and there’s not much sense in enduring torture for it either. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/91 "2008-05-16T05:28:27Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I would need a better reason than the misbegotten justifications for Vietnam. There’s no shame in selling out a bullshit cause, and there’s not much sense in enduring torture for it either. [/QUOTE] It wasn’t about the damn war. It was about sticking together and not selling out your fellow servicemen. It was about dignity. It was about pride, demonstrating to their torturers that they were the better men. Why are you so steadfast in your refusal to acknowledge this? More to the point, where does this never-ending, intolerable hatred come from? You claim to have served, and yet every chance you get you tear the military apart, for everything from the character of its membership to the quality of its leadership. I cannot understand what your problem is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/92 "2008-05-16T05:45:03Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] It wasn’t about the damn war. It was about sticking together and not selling out your fellow servicemen. It was about dignity. It was about pride, demonstrating to their torturers that they were the better men. Why are you so steadfast in your refusal to acknowledge this? More to the point, where does this never-ending, intolerable hatred come from? [/quote] Hatred of what? > [@](#): > > You claim to have served, and yet every chance you get you tear the military apart, for everything from the character of its membership to the quality of its leadership. I cannot understand what your problem is. Show me where I’ve said a single bad word about the military. Ever. In the history of this board. All I’ve ever criticized is the civilian leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/93 "2008-05-16T05:53:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I would need a better reason than the misbegotten justifications for Vietnam. There’s no shame in selling out a bullshit cause, and there’s not much sense in enduring torture for it either. [/QUOTE] That’s fine. Then you quit. Resign your commission. Be a conscientious objector. I admire Cassius Clay greatly. He opposed the war. He didn’t run away; he didn’t serve and try to get a cushy job. He stood up and said, in effect, “This is wrong, and I’ll have no part of it.” He lost his boxing license and gained a felony conviction. He was willing to lose a lot - his whole career, potentially – for what he believed. If you DO serve – if you take the oath and wear the uniform – then you’ve given your word. The time to realize that Vietnam is a bullshit war is not the first time you’re in physical danger or pain. If it’s bullshit, you back out and take what consequences come beforehand; when you’re a captured POW, you … …never mind. This is like explaining calculus to a horse. Wastes your time, wastes the horse’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/94 "2008-05-16T05:58:40Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I admire Cassius Clay greatly. [/QUOTE] Why not call him by his name? Seriously, I’m not being a smartass here. The man to whom you refer is called Muhammad Ali. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/95 "2008-05-16T06:01:06Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] That’s fine. Then you quit. Resign your commission. Be a conscientious objector. [/QUOTE] That’s a good point actually. I would never volunteer for something like that in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/96 "2008-05-16T06:05:16Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Why not call him by his name? Seriously, I’m not being a smartass here. The man to whom you refer is called Muhammad Ali. [/QUOTE] That was kind of strange. Maybe **Bricker** though Ali was still using his birth name at the time (he wasn’t, but maybe Bricker _thought_ he was). I don’t think Bricker meant anything insulting by it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/97 "2008-05-16T06:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] That was kind of strange. Maybe **Bricker** though Ali was still using his birth name at the time (he wasn’t, but maybe Bricker _thought_ he was). I don’t think Bricker meant anything insulting by it. [/QUOTE] He said “admire.” The present tense. I don’t think he was being insulting either, but it is a strange slip of the tongue, if in fact that’s what it was. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/98 "2008-05-16T08:45:43Z")
If Stockdale and McCain suffered harm to preserve the honorable reputation of US Military forces there is nothing to show for it now. No wonder John has gone a little loopy recently. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/99 "2008-05-16T10:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] If Stockdale and McCain suffered harm to preserve the honorable reputation of US Military forces there is nothing to show for it now. No wonder John has gone a little loopy recently. [/QUOTE] I agree, I think McCain has some long term psych issues. I’m still trying to figure out what McCain and Stockdale accomplished by their resolve. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464/100 "2008-05-16T13:10:20Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] More to the point, where does this never-ending, intolerable hatred come from? You claim to have served, and yet every chance you get you tear the military apart, for everything from the character of its membership to the quality of its leadership. I cannot understand what your problem is. [/QUOTE] **Diogenes** was a military cook, so it’s probably nothing more than a bad case of self-loathing. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pows-like-stockdale-and-mccain-caused-themselves-harm-for-no-good-reason/449464.md?page=6)