[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
for a bullshit cause like Vietnam? Fuck that. I’ll sell that out like a bag of loose joints.
[/QUOTE]
Back then they didn’t have the benefit of 40 years of historical perspective. There were legitimate arguments that we were preserving our way of life. They turned out to be wrong, of course, but no one could have known that for sure yet.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Back then they didn’t have the benefit of 40 years of historical perspective. There were legitimate arguments that we were preserving our way of life. They turned out to be wrong, of course, but no one could have known that for sure yet.
[/QUOTE]
I was alive during Vietnam. Everyone knew the arguments were bullshit at the time.
[QUOTE=Bricker]
Perhaps Diogenes’s “personal code” is toughness and stubbornness on a message board, with very little personal cost. When the situation involves actual personal injury, Diogenes would most likely behave in the most craven way possible, signing a false confession in triplicate before they laid a finger on him.
[/QUOTE]
I’m sure you’d be a rock under torture. I don’t know how much I could take (and hope to God I never find out), but I’m not going to delude myself that I’d be any kind of hero.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I was alive during Vietnam. Everyone knew the arguments were bullshit at the time.
[/QUOTE]
Really? Everyone?
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Really? Everyone?
[/QUOTE]
There were morons then just like there are morons now.
[QUOTE=spifflog]
All kidding aside, if you can’t understand why they would resist the enemy, and support their fellow countrymen imprisoned with them, I don’t know how anyone is going to be able to explain it to you.
[/QUOTE]
It appears spifflog was correct way back in post 4. Thread should have been closed right then.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I’m sure you’d be a rock under torture. I don’t know how much I could take (and hope to God I never find out), but I’m not going to delude myself that I’d be any kind of hero.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know how long I could hold out.
But I would hold out until I couldn’t.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
There were morons then just like there are morons now.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, you meant everyone who was a True Scotsman.
[QUOTE=Bricker]
Oh, you meant everyone who was a True Scotsman.
[/QUOTE]
So the word “everyone” can only be taken literally, huh?
Look, the point is that the stupidity of Vietnam is not something that was only recognized in retrospect, 40 years later. It was quite well known to be a debacle at the time.
[QUOTE=Bricker]
I don’t know how long I could hold out.
But I would hold out until I couldn’t.
[/QUOTE]
I would need a better reason than the misbegotten justifications for Vietnam. There’s no shame in selling out a bullshit cause, and there’s not much sense in enduring torture for it either.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I would need a better reason than the misbegotten justifications for Vietnam. There’s no shame in selling out a bullshit cause, and there’s not much sense in enduring torture for it either.
[/QUOTE]
It wasn’t about the damn war. It was about sticking together and not selling out your fellow servicemen. It was about dignity. It was about pride, demonstrating to their torturers that they were the better men. Why are you so steadfast in your refusal to acknowledge this?
More to the point, where does this never-ending, intolerable hatred come from? You claim to have served, and yet every chance you get you tear the military apart, for everything from the character of its membership to the quality of its leadership. I cannot understand what your problem is.
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
It wasn’t about the damn war. It was about sticking together and not selling out your fellow servicemen. It was about dignity. It was about pride, demonstrating to their torturers that they were the better men. Why are you so steadfast in your refusal to acknowledge this?
More to the point, where does this never-ending, intolerable hatred come from?
[/quote]
Hatred of what?
Show me where I’ve said a single bad word about the military. Ever. In the history of this board. All I’ve ever criticized is the civilian leadership.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I would need a better reason than the misbegotten justifications for Vietnam. There’s no shame in selling out a bullshit cause, and there’s not much sense in enduring torture for it either.
[/QUOTE]
That’s fine. Then you quit. Resign your commission. Be a conscientious objector.
I admire Cassius Clay greatly. He opposed the war. He didn’t run away; he didn’t serve and try to get a cushy job. He stood up and said, in effect, “This is wrong, and I’ll have no part of it.” He lost his boxing license and gained a felony conviction. He was willing to lose a lot - his whole career, potentially – for what he believed.
If you DO serve – if you take the oath and wear the uniform – then you’ve given your word. The time to realize that Vietnam is a bullshit war is not the first time you’re in physical danger or pain. If it’s bullshit, you back out and take what consequences come beforehand; when you’re a captured POW, you …
…never mind. This is like explaining calculus to a horse. Wastes your time, wastes the horse’s time.
[QUOTE=Bricker]
I admire Cassius Clay greatly.
[/QUOTE]
Why not call him by his name? Seriously, I’m not being a smartass here. The man to whom you refer is called Muhammad Ali.
[QUOTE=Bricker]
That’s fine. Then you quit. Resign your commission. Be a conscientious objector.
[/QUOTE]
That’s a good point actually. I would never volunteer for something like that in the first place.
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Why not call him by his name? Seriously, I’m not being a smartass here. The man to whom you refer is called Muhammad Ali.
[/QUOTE]
That was kind of strange. Maybe Bricker though Ali was still using his birth name at the time (he wasn’t, but maybe Bricker thought he was). I don’t think Bricker meant anything insulting by it.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
That was kind of strange. Maybe Bricker though Ali was still using his birth name at the time (he wasn’t, but maybe Bricker thought he was). I don’t think Bricker meant anything insulting by it.
[/QUOTE]
He said “admire.” The present tense.
I don’t think he was being insulting either, but it is a strange slip of the tongue, if in fact that’s what it was.
If Stockdale and McCain suffered harm to preserve the honorable reputation of US Military forces there is nothing to show for it now. No wonder John has gone a little loopy recently.
[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
If Stockdale and McCain suffered harm to preserve the honorable reputation of US Military forces there is nothing to show for it now. No wonder John has gone a little loopy recently.
[/QUOTE]
I agree, I think McCain has some long term psych issues. I’m still trying to figure out what McCain and Stockdale accomplished by their resolve.
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
More to the point, where does this never-ending, intolerable hatred come from? You claim to have served, and yet every chance you get you tear the military apart, for everything from the character of its membership to the quality of its leadership. I cannot understand what your problem is.
[/QUOTE]
Diogenes was a military cook, so it’s probably nothing more than a bad case of self-loathing.
