# Practicalities of ancient commerce and newcomers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210 "2011-10-10T18:55:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/21 "2011-10-13T20:38:56Z")
Herodotus has a description of how the Carthaginians conducted trade without a common language. > [@](#): > > The Carthaginians tell us that they trade with a race of men who live in a part of Libya beyond the Pillars of Herakles. On reaching this country, they unload their goods, arrange them tidily along the beach, and then, returning to their boats, raise a smoke. Seeing the smoke, the natives come down to the beach, place on the ground a certain quantity of gold in exchange for the goods, and go off again to a distance. The Carthaginians then come ashore and take a look at the gold; and if they think it presents a fair price for their wares, they collect it and go away; if, on the other hand, it seems too little, they go back aboard and wait, and the natives come and add to the gold until they are satisfied. There is perfect honesty on both sides; the Carthaginians never touch the gold until it equals in value what they have offered for sale, and the natives never touch the goods until the gold has been taken away. I remember this because Robert Heinlein used the method for Interstellar trade on one planet in his novel **Citizen of the Galaxy**. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/22 "2011-10-13T21:05:51Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Herodotus has a description of how the Carthaginians conducted trade without a common language. Probably took awhile to work out the protocol, though. I doubt it would be feasible in a busy port where everybody else is already wheeling and dealing with the aid of verbal communication. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/23 "2011-10-13T21:17:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Probably took awhile to work out the protocol, though. I doubt it would be feasible in a busy port where everybody else is already wheeling and dealing with the aid of verbal communication. Not really. It would have been rare to have that many ships in at once. One ship would have satisified the trade needs for two or three goods for months at least. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/24 "2011-10-13T21:33:55Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Not really. It would have been rare to have that many ships in at once. One ship would have satisified the trade needs for two or three goods for months at least. Uh… maybe in the original remote beachfront Libyan setting that Herodotus describes, but the OP was asking about the ancient **port cities** of extensive trading empires. You try arranging your merchandise tidily along the harborfront of a major port city and then going back to your boats and waiting for the natives to set out some gold to exchange for it, and see where that gets you. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/25 "2011-10-13T21:38:41Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > No, he’s right. Money changing was a common sight in ancient cities. They value of gold and silver coins is based on weight and purity, hence their use of scales. Some merchants would be willing to deal directly in whatever you had, but it was pretty common to exchange it first. Of course, you had to deal with the money changer, who had his cut, and you had to be careful he was shorting you with a false weight. Concur. Plus, the trip to make offerings at the Temple in Jerusalem was mandatory for evey Jew. Although not yet in the Diaspora per se, even at that time Jews came from distant countries. They are not going to shlep a calf for sacrifice these distances; the money-changers were essential to the practice/liturgy at that time. My take is that the Jesus story reflects the entire Temple-era rejection by the early Christians. The only Sacrifice is Jesus Himself. (Post diaspora Rabbinical thought has obviously had to deal with the inability to slaughter cute little calves with no place to do it.) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/26 "2011-10-14T03:41:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh… maybe in the original remote beachfront Libyan setting that Herodotus describes, but the OP was asking about the ancient **port cities** of extensive trading empires. > > You try arranging your merchandise tidily along the harborfront of a major port city and then going back to your boats and waiting for the natives to set out some gold to exchange for it, and see where that gets you. No, I knew exactly of what I spoke. Ships did not constantly travel in and out of port - for one thing, you could often get only one voyage a year, so ships spent a lot of time in port. For another, the port wasn’t the center of bustling markets, but the gateway to major markets. For a third, cities with large ports have plenty of space. The idea that you couldn’t do business in a perfectly commonplace manner just because the port was busy is utter nonsense. If someone wants to buy what you’ve got, you could do business. ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/27 "2011-10-14T06:43:01Z")
I think the Herodotus story is a way to expand your trade empire. It shouldn’t take many decades before there is enough of trust before the traders to meet in person. They will soon learn the names of the most popular items in each others language and soon there’ll be half-blooded babies too. After that, the Phoenicians will start planning a port facility and many of their colonies were nothing more, in contrast to Greeks who were mainly just solving overpopulation with them. The Phoenicians were notorious slave traders (=kidnappers), so it must have been a somewhat tedious process to make the locals come close. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/28 "2011-10-14T06:53:29Z")
There was no such thing as a “nation” 2000 years ago. The idea of nation-states is a relatively modern one, originating sometime around the 1800s. As has been pointed out, at that time pretty much any part of anything around the Mediterranean would have been Rome. There was Rome, Roman allies (socii), and barbarian lands. There were no “other nations”. So the real question is: are you a Roman citizen, a subject of a Roman territory/ally, or a barbarian? That’s going to make a very big difference as to how you are treated/received. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/29 "2011-10-14T07:22:00Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > There was Rome, Roman allies (socii), and barbarian lands. There were no “other nations”. So they weren’t called nations, but there was numerous Kingdoms, Empires and City States. See here for a list: > **[List of political entities in the 1st century BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_the_1st_century_BC)** > > This is a list of political entities that existed between 100 BC and 1 BC. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210/30 "2011-10-14T14:51:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Probably took awhile to work out the protocol, though. I doubt it would be feasible in a busy port where everybody else is already wheeling and dealing with the aid of verbal communication. This was a technique developed for dealing with uncivilized people beyond the straits of Herakles. Anywhere in the Mediterranean after the time of Alexander you could probably get by using Koine. In the east, Aramaic might be more useful. If all you are doing is trade, you can usually get along with less than 500 words and a lot of hand gestures. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/practicalities-of-ancient-commerce-and-newcomers/599210.md?page=1)