# Prankgate: mistake or lie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2001, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846 "2001-05-18T18:34:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2001, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/1 "2001-05-18T18:34:18Z")
It turns out that the Bush teams’ allegations that the Clintonistas vandalized the White house has no basis in fact. _No truth in White House vandal scandal, GSA reports_ [http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/3accae7d.517,.html](http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/3accae7d.517,.html) And from this link: (slate, will be gone tomorrow…) [http://politics.slate.msn.com/politics/default.asp](http://politics.slate.msn.com/politics/default.asp) > [@](#): > > The General Services Administration concluded that **outgoing Clintonites had not ransacked the White House during the presidential transition** , as unidentified aides to President Bush had insisted. > [@](#): > > the allegations of mass destruction, which came from unnamed Bush White House officials, were never backed up with proof. > [@](#): > > The real story, Marshall wrote, “was the new White House’s smearing of their predecessors and Fleischer’s refusal to put up or shut up when it came time to start giving details.” So, Was prankgate an honest mistake? or a deliberate smear campaign? tj ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/2 "2001-05-18T21:03:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*Was prankgate an honest mistake? or a deliberate smear campaign? > \*\* Speaking as an enthusiastic Bush supporter, I cannot see any way to exonerate the Bush team. Even if they didn’t start the story, they knew that it was false or exaggerated. They should have put out a correcton. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2001, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/3 "2001-05-18T21:28:17Z")
Oddly, the AP dispatch I read (sent in email, sorry I can’t link it), claimed that Bush himself denined the alleged pranks just a few days after the mud was slung. Why this didn’t receive greater currency, even in the liberal press, I do not know. MR ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2001, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/4 "2001-05-18T21:37:52Z")
in one of your links > [@](#): > > Bush Press Secretary Ari Fleischer elliptically confirmed the stories and declared that the White House was cataloguing the vandalism. But he also announced that the Bushies were turning the other cheek and declined to open a formal investigation. “Part of changing the tone in Washington,” Fleischer said, “is to allow some things that others may have made a focus of, to let pass.” the perfect smear. disseminate a lie, then when pressed for details/proof, offer up ‘well, we’re going to be **above** that sort of thing, and forgive them’. Gotta give them credit. they did a great job of it. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2001, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/5 "2001-05-19T00:51:35Z")
I don’t see how anyone could consider the removal of the W’s from keyboards to be “ransacking” or “mass destruction”… I say, who cares? Half of the stories I heard had the implication that it was the individual staffers who did the “damage” anyway. Just another one of those “Big Effin’ Deals”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2001, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/6 "2001-05-19T03:42:27Z")
Just curious - who here is willing to admit they believed this stuff at the time? How do you feel now? And how is this instance different from all the other proven lies about Clinton and his administration that the same people have spread? This doesn’t mean much by itself, obviously, but this is certainly illustrative of the mindset of the Clinton-haters who dominated (and to a large extent, still do) the atmosphere in Washington for the last 6 years. Lie after distortion after exaggeration after lie, no evidence, just allegations and fruitless investigations, all proving objectively nothing. When they couldn’t rationalize it away by saying that either the allegations hadn’t been investigated enough or the Clintons had hidden the evidence, they would and do say things like > [@](#): > > Just another one of those “Big Effin’ Deals”. Can anyone from the cite what the National Review and Rush Limbaugh, or the Wall Street Journal and Fox News, are saying about this, besides nothing at all? Tony Snow got cornered in the KC Star link about his lie about Air Force One, but still claims he stands by the source(s) he believed without question - hey, it was defamatory about the Clintons, so it MUST have been true, right? No retraction pending from him either, obviously, so he remains on record as another proven liar, like the ones already listed. And there are still some of you who give such sources your credibility, and still agree with their denunciations of the moral character of people they have policy disagreements with. I don’t know whether it’s worse to be hateful or gullible, but I know it’s worse yet to be both. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2001, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/7 "2001-05-19T06:09:21Z")
> [@](#): > > who here is willing to admit they believed this stuff at the time? I didn’t really care, aside from finding it funny (in a funny sort of way, too). However, my dad - the stark raving looney conservative who worships Rush Limbaugh alongside Jesus - immediately accepted it as gospel and kept ranting and raving about how “those damned liberals” can’t be trusted because of the supposed keyboard tampering in the White House. I think I’ll print out the articles and leave them on his pillow… ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/8 "2001-05-19T20:15:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\* > Can anyone from the cite what the National Review and Rush Limbaugh, or the Wall Street Journal and Fox News, are saying about this, besides nothing at all? \*\* The right wing web site Free Republic posted a NY Times article about it, entitled: _White House Vandalism Caper Was Overblown, a Report Finds_ The first comment posted under this article said, \*That’s not the only thing in the Clinton era that was “overblown.” \* ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2001, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/9 "2001-05-19T21:31:38Z")
Oh, December, that is such rubbish. It’s physically impossible for someone to be “overblown”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2001, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/10 "2001-05-19T21:50:56Z")
I seem to recall that, only a few days after the allegations of vandalism over and above the traditional transition change staffer prank, the message from most _everybody_ was, “Actually, it turns out this isn’t so bad, and is within the parameters of the generally accepted pranks.” It blew over very quickly, and no one continued to make a big deal about it on any side. > [@](#): > > \*\*but this is certainly illustrative of the mindset of the Clinton-haters who dominated (and to a large extent, still do) the atmosphere in Washington for the last 6 years. Lie after distortion after exaggeration after lie, no evidence, just allegations and fruitless investigations, all proving objectively nothing. \*\* Yeah, Elvis. That poor Bill Clinton. He was a model of virtue and propriety. The injustice of it all. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2001, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/11 "2001-05-19T23:18:55Z")
> [@](#): > > It blew over very quickly, and no one continued to make a big deal about it on any side. ??? Which of course is why the GAO was called in to investigate the matter. :rolleyes: I don’t think the maligned Clinton staffers will be hearing a public apology anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/12 "2001-05-20T01:04:57Z")
Do you suppose that by any chance politics could have anything to do with this? I can’t imagine that any public servant would stoop to saying anything unfounded about a political opponent, which might reflect adversely on the opponent. That sort of thing just doesn’t happen in America, especially now that civility has been restored to government. I am shocked, Sir, shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/13 "2001-05-20T01:37:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*but this is certainly illustrative of the mindset of the Clinton-haters who dominated (and to a large extent, still do) the atmosphere in Washington for the last 6 years. Lie after distortion after exaggeration after lie, no evidence, just allegations and fruitless investigations, all proving objectively nothing. > > \*\* > Yeah, Elvis. That poor Bill Clinton. He was a model of virtue and propriety. The injustice of it all. \*\* You’re right Milo, people should be able to make up any damn thing about Clinton and his staff, and never be called on it. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/14 "2001-05-20T02:43:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think the maligned Clinton staffers will be hearing a public apology anytime soon. Just like China! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/15 "2001-05-20T06:15:48Z")
Oh, the perfidious Liberal Media! Why did they push this story, which would _seem_ to denigrate thier cause? Obviously, they knew it was all bullshit. They _deliberately_ exagerated the story to boost the _backlash_ when the truth came out! The LM was desperate! George II has just won damn near almost pretty close to _half_ the popular vote! With such an invincible mandate, George II was empowered to solidify the rule of the Real Americans, and usher in the return to the Golden Age. (Comparisons to the rule of the Sacred Ronnie are not entirely in vain, in my opinion. I believe, and I will stand by this controversial assessment, that George II is the intellectual _equal_ to Ronald Reagan!) Cunning devils! They knew that eventually the story would break on the SDMB! They could count on a Cecilian backlash! Having captured the intellectual elite, it was only a matter of time before the entire effete-intellectual/homo/Unitarian faction was galvanized and motivated. How long, then, before the full weight of Libertarian support aligned with their cause? Need further proof? Take note of the foofarah about Ted Olson and his alleged involvement in some sort of “Arkansas Project”. As though right-thinking, clear-headed patriots would denigrate the Office of the President for mere political gain! We owe Mr. Scaife a debt of gratitude for boldly exposing the savage ravishment of Mrs. Jones innocent daughter, Little Paula, the Heidi of the Ozarks. Wake up, America! Remember, just because George doesn’t think very _often_ does not mean he doesn’t think _correctly_! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/16 "2001-05-20T13:11:34Z")
Milo, December: Do you realize you seem to be condoning lying in selective circumstances, specifically if you already dislike the person the lie is about? Seems to me there’s at least 1 Commandment relating to that. Remember, moral standards apply equally to those we like as to those we dislike, or they’re just more of the relativism that the sanctimonious right likes to condemn. > [@](#): > > That poor Bill Clinton. He was a model of virtue and propriety. The injustice of it all. Milo, what does the evidence (or rather, lack of it) force one to conclude about who the most dishonorable liars have been? ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/17 "2001-05-20T14:53:16Z")
Squink: > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## It blew over very quickly, and no one continued to make a big deal about it on any side. > > \*\*??? > > Which of course is why the GAO was called in to investigate the matter.\*\* :rolleyes: From the [New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-01-27/News_and_Views/Beyond_the_City/a-97596.asp): > [@](#): > > The President dismissed the vandalism. > > “There might have been a prank or two, maybe somebody put a cartoon on the wall, but that’s okay,” Bush said yesterday. “It’s time now to move forward.” > \ > Nevertheless, the White House relentlessly soft-pedaled the vandalism, refusing to release estimates of property damage and denying that a formal investigation was underway. Press secretary Ari Fleischer downplayed his statement that aides were cataloguing the damage. > > “It’s just one person in the administration who is really keeping track in his head of the different things that people have said took place to their desks or offices,” Fleischer said. It’s also already been noted that the Free Republic was saying the initial stories of outlandish vandalism were overblown. A somewhat right-leaning publication, one might say. Revtim: > [@](#): > > \*\*You’re right Milo, people should be able to make up any damn thing about Clinton and his staff, and never be called on it. \*\* If you’re referring to the White House office pranks/vandalism, I don’t see any evidence that anyone lied about anything. People might have initially been overstating what they saw, and upon time to reflect, put it into context. ElvisL1ves: > [@](#): > > \*\*Milo, December: Do you realize you seem to be condoning lying in selective circumstances, specifically if you already dislike the person the lie is about? \*\* What a ridiculous thing to surmise from my comments. > [@](#): > > \*\*Remember, moral standards apply equally to those we like as to those we dislike, or they’re just more of the relativism that the sanctimonious right likes to condemn. \*\* For you to be giving lessons on morality is rich. I believe you still owe me an apology and a retraction for your misstatement of the truth in my missile defense thread. Taking character lessons from your favorite ex-president? > [@](#): > > \*\*Milo, what does the evidence (or rather, lack of it) force one to conclude about who the most dishonorable liars have been? \*\* And what major allegation that’s been investigated regarding Clinton has been proven absolutely to be untrue, as oppose to being stymied by witnesses who plead the fifth and a lack of cooperation by the Clinton White House? ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/18 "2001-05-20T15:02:24Z")
I want to qualify what I said to Revtim: > [@](#): > > If you’re referring to the White House office pranks/vandalism, I don’t see any evidence that anyone lied about anything. I can’t say that with any certainty regarding Rep. Barr, or columnist Tony Snow, the two people cited in the story linked in the OP. Snow appears to have apologized for his overstatement in that very story. My point is that the official White House position was “this is no big deal” very shortly after the allegations emerged. And it was made apparent by the comments of President Bush and Ari Fleisher. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/19 "2001-05-20T16:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > > And what major allegation that’s been investigated regarding Clinton has been proven absolutely to be untrue, as oppose to being stymied by witnesses who plead the fifth and a lack of cooperation by the Clinton White House? Whitewater. “Troopergate” “Filegate” The “murder” of Vince Foster. The sale of military secrets to China. Though, once they get DNA samples off the arrow, the entire “Cock Robin” case may resurface. A quibble: the Bush team didn’t say “it didn’t happen”. They spun it like “we are the grown-ups, we are too sober-sided and mature to make a big deal out of this childish escapade”. > [@](#): > > Taking character lessons from your favorite ex-president? Beneath comment. Repent at your leisure. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/20 "2001-05-20T16:52:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Milo, December: Do you realize you seem to be condoning lying in selective circumstances, specifically if you already dislike the person the lie is about? \*\* On the contrary, in the 2nd post on this thread, I wrote: “I cannot see any way to exonerate the Bush team.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846.md?page=2)