# Prankgate: mistake or lie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2001, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846 "2001-05-18T18:34:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2001, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/61 "2001-06-03T23:17:30Z")
LOL The Bush administration actually did something gracious, by trying not to make a big deal of the vandalism. But, some Democrats were unwilling to let things lie. It may have been inconceivable to them that a politician would ever fail to go for the jugular. As a result the Democrats have embarassed themselves twice over this incident. Will they go for the trifecta, and pursue this matter further? If they want to, they could get themselves more bad publicity if additional photos are released. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/62 "2001-06-04T00:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > > And they call _Bush_ stupid! > > …gracious… Gracious! Good Golly! Rather a stretch, don’t you think? I mean, a rhino and a gazelle are both mammals, but still,… I figure I’m probably somewhere on that list of “they”. A lot of you have already cozened that my politics are…left of center (I like to think of it as the conservative wing of the extreme left…like it matters) So let me just say: I don’t think “Landslide” George is stupid. He even has an element of grace, in a scrape-your-boots-at-the-door kind of way. He’s a good old boy, and he means well. If I were to guess, I would guess that if he had his dibs, the matter would have ended the minute he heard about it. I think he would have said “Fuhgeddaboutit!” (or words to that effect.) So what must I guess next? That he _didn’t_ get his dibs. What he _wanted_ to happen, _didn’t_ happen. How come? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/63 "2001-06-04T01:05:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*That he _didn’t_ get his dibs. What he _wanted_ to happen, _didn’t_ happen. > > How come? \*\* As a guess, one reason is that the American press likes stories of no importance. E.g., look at all the coverage they gave to the alleged subliminal “rats” on a Bush ad. Look at their unfair attacks on Gore for his comment about the internet. A non-demanding story about petty vandalism was right up their alley. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/64 "2001-06-04T01:14:52Z")
Right from day one, the official line of the White House _was_ ‘Fuggitaboutit’. When the reports of the vandalism originally came out, the only official comment from the White House was, “We aren’t going to talk about stuff like that. We’ve got work to do. Forget it.” But of course, the story didn’t die, and now it has mutated into some kind of intentional smear by the White House. So now they are playing defensively and are forced to release photos and statements that confirm the damage. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/65 "2001-06-04T12:08:02Z")
Now then. Is someone saying “The White House’s list of damage is inaccurate. Their allegations are untrue?” Or anything to that effect? That second paragraph you cut and pasted is a particularly mealy-mouthed, half-assed implication. Wow. The new administration didn’t record evidence like cops at a murder scene. Clearly it didn’t happen, then. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/66 "2001-06-04T13:55:50Z")
Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! The White House staff sits at the very pinnacle of bureacracy. How much you want to bet you have to fill out a form to get a box of paper clips? If a phone line was cut, it would have been repaired, and a form would have been filled out. So, where is it? Ditto for any of the rest of it. If it happened it was documented. And if it wasn’t documented, it is due to the mature grace and forbearance of people who hate Bill Clinton’s guts. Right. Got it. Milo, keep this up and you guys will be the Cognitive Dissonance poster children. My favorite: the copy machine loaded with porno in the paper tray, some of it so deep it will be weeks before they get it out! Somebody please tell me these guys aren’t so stupid they don’t know how to change the sodding paper tray! No, I don’t think it was “Landslide” George’s idea. I think it was his owners and trainers (the same wonderful people who brought you Ronnie “Brainstem” Reagan!) Further, I don’t even think they made it up, I think they heard a rumor that fit deliciously with their own prejudices, about how they are the “grown-ups” taking over, and they believed it without a moments hesitation. Keep in mind: these people don’t dislike Bill Clinton, they are not miffed with him, they **loathe** him with every fiber in thier being. Should their “recollections” be taken at face value? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/67 "2001-06-04T14:10:03Z")
Sure, that’s pretty easy to say since they admit that they have no physical evidence and only made up their “damage list” this past weekend. Or do they all have photographic memories ? With 100 busted keyboards and 10 snapped phone cords one has to wonder whether Fleischer corrected for the number of cords snapped inadvertantly as desks and filing cabinets were being moved about. It seems a bit paranoid to attribute 10 busted cords to acts of malice when thousands of phones were subjected to all the accidental dangers inherent in clearing out of an office. Of course, having mutated through months of water-cooler discussions the “100 busted keybords” is probably an inflated figure too. Fleischer said the new administration had to buy 100 new computer keyboards, at a cost of $2,000. At twenty bucks a pop that’s pretty cheap. It’s too bad he didn’t keep a record of the repair bills. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/68 "2001-06-04T14:24:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > Fleischer said the new administration had to buy 100 new computer keyboards, at a cost of $2,000. At twenty bucks a pop that’s pretty cheap. It’s too bad he didn’t keep a record of the repair bills. > \*\* [More on that point.](http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16398-2001Jun3.html) > [@](#): > > "Jake Siewert, Clinton’s last presidential press secretary, called the White House’s tactics ‘incredibly infuriating.’ He said the government keeps careful records of repairs to phones and computers because much of the work is done by subcontractors. > > ‘If I needed my keyboard fixed, I had to submit a form,’ said Siewert, who worked in the White House for more than six years. ‘There should have been records of all this stuff.’" So where is all the widespread destruction and theft, of the White House and Air Force One as well, that Fleischer hinted at and the mouthfoamers insisted must be true? Just a few practical jokes along the lines of the ones that One-Term Sr.'s people pulled on Clinton? Fleischer needs to quit the games. If a White House spokesman has his credibility put into question and doesn’t address it immediately and thoroughly, he and his administration will never get the benefit of any doubt on other subjects by the Beltway media. Ron Ziegler could explain that in detail. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/69 "2001-06-04T21:26:24Z")
Elvis, the paragraph directly after the ones you quoted from the Washington Post offer the White House’s response to that idea. Wonder why you didn’t include that? ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/70 "2001-06-04T22:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > Elvis, the paragraph directly after the ones you quoted from the Washington Post offer the White House’s response to that idea. Wonder why you didn’t include that? **Milo** You would be referring to this: > [@](#): > > \*\* > The White House has said its repair records do not indicate the cause of damage and therefore could not easily be assembled to prove a vandalism spree.\*\* More weasel words. They can’t prove the cause of the repair, true. But they can prove that the repairs happened. That would at least be corroborating evidence, if not proof. But they didn’t provide that evidence. Only an excuse. While you are wondering, you should wonder about that. tj ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/71 "2001-06-04T23:19:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Sure, that’s pretty easy to say since they admit that they have no physical evidence and only made up their “damage list” this past weekend. Or do they all have photographic memories ? \*\* Go back to Page 1, Squink. Around the time this happened, Fleisher said a staffer was making a list of stuff done in various offices. I linked the article. December’s right. I’m a bit perplexed as to why the Party of the Intelligencia is screaming and stamping its feet, begging the Bush administration to make it look bad. [aside]I actually think the tradition of the staff of the outgoing administration pranking the incoming staff is pretty cool. Perhaps taken a bit too far in this case, but again, who’s making the deal about it? The W’s off the keyboards was clever (unless, as Fleisher is maintaining, it ruined the keyboards). And I think the pornographic pictures deep in the copier is funny. Although that and the alleged explicit graffiti probably weren’t a good idea from a political standpoint. We are a pretty uptight nation, generally.[/aside] ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/72 "2001-06-05T02:47:47Z")
[QUOTE] Go back to Page 1, Squink. Around the time this happened, Fleisher said a staffer was making a list of stuff done in various offices. I linked the article. [QUOTE] Umm Milo, apparently the staffer never completed the list making process. According to the NY times June 4 article: > [@](#): > > But, Mr. Fleischer said, White House aides collected the information for the first time on Friday and Saturday, after Democrats demanded an apology for the allegations. > **[Bush Spokesman Catalogs Pranks Attributed to Clinton Aides (Published 2001)](https://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/04/us/bush-spokesman-catalogs-pranks-attributed-to-clinton-aides.html)** > > White House, goaded by skeptical Democrats, provides additional details of pranks and vandalism it says were committed by Clinton administration employees leaving office in January; describes damage to telehpone system, inscription of pornographic... Apparently they lost whatever list they may have made at the time ? The current “damage list” is based on stale memories. That seems a bit strange though. Surely someone in the administration considered the possibility that they might have to offer proof of their allegations at some point ? The rumors grew larger and wilder even after G.W. did his “forgive and forget” bit on the subject. Was no one on the inside aware that that might irritate people to the point of retaliating ? I think the Party of the Intelligencia is screaming and stamping its feet because they don’t believe the administration has what it takes to make them look bad. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/73 "2001-06-05T03:23:28Z")
For the Fox News channel article, see: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,26376,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,26376,00.html) > [@](#): > > …But when a Democratic congressman demanded last week that the White House apologize for making the allegations, Fleischer said, he had no choice but to detail anew some of the damage found by the Bush team. > > “It was always the White House intention to let it die,” he said. “Unfortunately, the corpse kicked.”… > > “The White House bent over backward to make this issue go away, to be gracious to the previous administration,” he said. But because of Weiner’s [Rep. Anthony D. Weiner, D-N.Y] comments, “we felt it had now become necessary to defend the career employees of the White House who were witness to these acts and had to spend an inordinate amount of time cleaning up as a result.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/74 "2001-06-05T15:17:34Z")
Drudge Report has a picture from the scene up on its site. **Milo, december,** how could I have doubted you! One glance is enough! Look there! Piles of paper, squared off in only the most desultory way! Large manilla envelopes in unseemly stacks! Untidiness of the most heinous type, bordering on disorder! Why, it looks for all the world as if a large office were being disrupted! Boy, if their Moms had seen this… Guess they ran out of film before they had a chance to record the scenes of human sacrifice and the used hypodermic needles scattered about! But, rest assured, a mental note was made by an aide! ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/75 "2001-06-05T22:18:10Z")
Oh, the photo doesn’t indicate the stuff Fleisher was talking about? Clearly nothing happened, then. This just in: Lance Ito is dragging O.J. Simpson around by his pants-leg, as The Juice is begging the judge to give him another chance at a life sentence without parole. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/76 "2001-06-06T00:01:20Z")
Deftly evaded, Milo! You might have a real career potential in the area of spin control! Adroitly you imply that anyone who can’t see that an absence of evidence is a clear indication of culpability must be slow on the uptake. But let me hasten to point out: this is it, so far. Did you have a look? Utterly unremarkable. Except: there is this camera. In a place where obscene graffiti is scrawled across the walls? No pictures. Porno loaded into the copier? No pictures. Sliced phone cords? Ditto. Gee, Milo, how come? All this juicy stuff, and no pictures? Well, guess it **could** be that they were simply too dignified and mature. Could be. Possible, I guess. I find that rather improbable, though, don’t you? You and I virtually embody maturity and dignity on the SDMB. If I had a photo opportunity of Trent Lott bludgeoning a baby seal as a sacrifice to Exxon, you know **I** would succumb to the temptation, with headlong enthusiasm! You might also, if you had these handwritten notes from Al Gore’s college days, wherein he lays claim to inventing the beer bong. This whole thing is a classic Urban Legend. Best guess: somebody actually did the prank about the “W” on the keyboards. The story builds, as well it might amongst people who sincerly believe that the Clintonistas are the minions of the AntiChrist. Then it got “leaked”, along with an utterly bizarre story about Air Force One. Now they wish to imply that the reason there is no hard evidence presented is because they are too mature and dignified to stoop to such. Spare me! If they had evidence, you would know it by now. Thier claims to coy reticence are deep dish crapola. Tell you what: when they do produce this hard evidence they are threatening, we’ll meet here and you can gloat. Don’t hold your breath. As to your metaphor regarding the OJ debacle: Huh? What? Are you on some sort of glaucoma prevention regimen? If not, may I recommend one? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/77 "2001-06-06T14:14:37Z")
C’mon, **elucidator** , as he’s been trying to explain, it’s precisely the _lack_ of evidence that proves an allegation. You sad, deluded Clinton-lovers are just never gonna get it, are you? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/78 "2001-06-06T14:27:22Z")
Dream on, elucidator and Elvis. If Ari F. is to be believed, there are more damning photos that haven’t been made public yet. Even without the photos, there’s lots of evidence in the testimony of the many people who saw the damage. Frankly, I don’t think the vandalism is particularly important. I remember a party many years ago, when I got drunk and did some pointless damage. Somehow it seemed funny while I was doing it. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/79 "2001-06-06T14:48:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > If Ari F. is to be believed That’s where you lose me. > [@](#): > > there are more damning photos that haven’t been made public yet. Hey december, can I interest you in my perpetual motion machine? It’s right over here in my closet, even though I haven’t made it public yet. > [@](#): > > Even without the photos, there’s lots of evidence in the testimony of the many people who saw the damage. Are you an Art Bell fan, by any chance? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846/80 "2001-06-06T14:56:21Z")
**December** , is your reverence for “veracity” absolute? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prankgate-mistake-or-lie/65846.md?page=5)