# "Pray for Obama: Psalm 109:8." Is this over the line? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567 "2009-11-22T21:24:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/41 "2009-11-23T22:21:42Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I think so. My first thought on seeing that line out of context is that “let his days be few” refers to just getting him out of office, whether by resignation, impeachment, or simply defeating him in the 2012 election. Death was _not_ the first thing that came to mind until I read the subsequent lines. Blast it, I was just successfully defeated by an anecdote. (Which I totally opened myself up for, I might add.) I may have to fall back on wondering how _long_ a person might successfully remain ignorant of the verse’s actual meaning, before the right-minded person shamefacedly shoves the shirt to the bottom of the trash can? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/42 "2009-11-23T22:27:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Blast it, I was just successfully defeated by an anecdote. (Which I totally opened myself up for, I might add.) > > I may have to fall back on wondering how _long_ a person might successfully remain ignorant of the verse’s actual meaning, before the right-minded person shamefacedly shoves the shirt to the bottom of the trash can? That’s a more interesting question, and it’s hard to say. I wonder how many right-minded people there are who pass these bumper stickers and T-shirts around, believing it only means getting Obama out of office and not understanding the darker aspects because they live in echo chambers and never meet anyone who has an interest in bringing it to their attention. Anecdote time again! I used to have a coworker who subjected herself more to right-wing talk than anything else. This was before Glenn Beck, but still when FOX was earning its reputation. I’d overhear her talking about the latest talking points (it was a small office) and I’d make the usual rebuttal that most talking points have. She’d always look surprised, as if she hadn’t considered another point of view. She was a good person and I liked her, but she definitely didn’t get her news from a variety of sources. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/43 "2009-11-23T23:26:29Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Pretty sure you have that backwards. We’re the ones that are tough on law and order, remember? Nonsense. The conservatives are the ones who think in terms of gay bashings, assassinations and bombings, suppressing & falsifying evidence, persecution, torture. They are religiously & ideologically fanatic, racist thugs who will quite cheerfully ignore or subvert law and order when it suits them. They’d cheer, and given the opportunity they’d hide the assassin from the authorities and make songs and prayers idolizing him. Like [Eric Rudolph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph#Fugitive): > [@](#): > > It is thought that Rudolph had the assistance of sympathizers while evading capture. Some in the area were vocal in support of him. Two country music songs were written about him and a locally top-selling T-shirt read: “Run Rudolph Run.” Lots of support for law and order there. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/44 "2009-11-24T00:39:22Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The picture of the shirt I saw didn’t have the text on it at all - in order to have any clue what it meant, the person buying the shirt would have to refer to the text. You know, the text that has the other lines immediately following it. > > But supposing for a moment that they bought the shirt after the seller explained it by _only_ telling them the single line, “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.” (Edit: or just clicked that one link.) Look at that line for a moment. Can a sentient human being read that and not _immidiately_ parse the first clause as “let his days be numbered” - which means, “let him die soon”? I think not. Plus of course the fact that there are only\* two ways to leave presidential office, and nobody’s trying to impeach Obama at the moment. > > Seriously, as a ‘cover’, it’s not even a _good_ cover. If I didn’t know the rest of the psalm and just saw the single line I would _still_ read it as calling for his death. There is just no way to credibly paint this in a good light. > > - mostly I came up with that idea about what the verse means even without the rest in the Pit before I read this thread. Yet, I was able to come up with what I consider to be the most likely explanation. The people who do this are stupid. They don’t realize the implication. They don’t think like we do. I think the reason for the rampant paranoia is that people think that others think the same way they do. They think something is bad, so obviously the other person thinks so to, and is perpetuating it because it is evil. Seeing the idiocy of the rabidly anti-Obama crowd, I think stupidity makes a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/45 "2009-11-24T00:46:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I came up with that idea about what the verse means even without the rest in the Pit before I read this thread. Yet, I was able to come up with what I consider to be the most likely explanation. The people who do this are stupid. They don’t realize the implication. They don’t think like we do. > > I think the reason for the rampant paranoia is that people think that others think the same way they do. They think something is bad, so obviously the other person thinks so to, and is perpetuating it because it is evil. Seeing the idiocy of the rabidly anti-Obama crowd, I think stupidity makes a lot more sense. When I see the rabidly anti-Obama crowd, I suspect that while a few idiot poster children get big press, I actually think that most of them are not as dumb as we liberals like to ad-hominem. (I mean, they tie their shoelaces. Successfully!) I think that they actually have other motivations that they are either masking or bolstering, like hardline republicanism or racism (which are _not_ the same thing). Such people may adopt really stupid argument, but I think that’s not because the people are really that stupid; I think it’s because they have another (perhaps less-presentable) agenda to support and aren’t picky about the quality of their supporting arguments - they’re more interested in their preconcieved conclusions being agreed with. ETA: So, I _do_ think they realize the implication, or at least the vast vast majority of them do. And that they don’t mind it at all. ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/46 "2009-11-25T17:07:20Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > My first thought on seeing that line out of context is that “let his days be few” refers to just getting him out of office, whether by resignation, impeachment, or simply defeating him in the 2012 election. That type of analysis would be completely foreign to the ancient Hebrew mind. It should be clear the line “let his days be few,” even by itself, can ONLY refer to the length of life in Hebrew culture. Having one’s “days” (=life) shortened is a curse (Job 10:20, Job 7:6, Psalm 102:23, Psalm 39:5), and having one’s days lengthened is a blessing from God (Prov. 21:6, Prov. 9:11, Ex. 23:26, Deut. 5:6, Deut. 6:2, Deut. 11:21, Job 29:8). Having one’s days be few NEVER refers to time in office, but to one’s life. Even more sinister is the fact that Psalm 109:8 is the exact verse quoted in Peter’s speech to the believers (Acts 1:20) after _Judas’s suicide_. Peter quotes the book of Psalms, “Let another take his office,” as justification for choosing a replacement for Judas after his cursed life was cut short. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/47 "2009-11-25T17:19:55Z")
> [@ragerdude](#): > > That type of analysis would be completely foreign to the ancient Hebrew mind. It should be clear the line “let his days be few,” even by itself, can ONLY refer to the length of life in Hebrew culture. No doubt. But, this particular usage of the verse is being made by, and for, **American** minds (if that is not too strong a word). ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/48 "2009-11-25T17:28:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No doubt. But, this particular usage of the verse is being made by, and for, **American** minds (if that is not too strong a word). Quite. Regardless of the original intention, and I do agree that the original intention was wishing for an early death, current-day Americans are simply reading the words without any historical context and likely without any kind of context at all beyond the “Pray For Obama, Psalms 109:8” line. ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/49 "2009-11-25T17:58:32Z")
Well, then, Americans should be taught to read ancient documents on their own terms, in their original contexts, rather than making stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/50 "2009-11-25T18:37:10Z")
I’m on the side of this being way, terrifyingly over the line. All the stuff about the other verses from the same psalm not being important is practically a dictionary example of disingenuous. Right wingers, you will reap what you sow. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/51 "2009-11-25T18:57:11Z")
> [@ragerdude](#): > > Well, then, Americans should be taught to read ancient documents on their own terms, in their original contexts, rather than making stuff up. :mad: If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for me! ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567/52 "2009-11-25T21:21:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :mad: If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for me! How do you suggest we solve that problem then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-for-obama-psalm-109-8-is-this-over-the-line/518567.md?page=2)