# "Pray to End Abortion" ... so what exactly are they praying FOR? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055 "2010-03-11T01:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/21 "2010-03-11T21:57:49Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Seconded. Prayer is a means by which we attempt to have the spirit of God come closer to our lives and our world and eventually use us as tools to better the world. “In my Father’s shed are many tools—some sharper than others.” –Jesus (unverified) ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/22 "2010-03-11T22:05:15Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Ultimately, I pray for an end to the circumstances that end up making them decide to abort. Similarly, I pray that women will not find themselves in the position where abortion seems like their best option. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/23 "2010-03-12T18:04:32Z")
They are probably praying for the physical and mental obstruction of pregnant women to get abortions, either by stopping the women themselves, or stopping the doctors. I’ve attended, as a spectator, lots of anti-abortion rallies in college, and have talked to a few of them. Never do they ask for the circumstances of abortion to be eliminated, or that women who would get abortions stop becoming pregnant. It is always about getting already pregnant women to not have the god-given right of abortions! 😃 Knowing that some of these people think anything that actually prevents pregnancy before it happens is akin to abortion, I see no evidence these people actually thought anything through before they put their sanctimonious words down on cardboard ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/24 "2010-03-12T18:25:54Z")
This thread convinced me to talk to some 40 Days For Life protesters (or vigil holders, or whatever), briefly, this morning. Not a ton of them – three men probably 40-70 and one ancient woman. God help me, they made me feel a bit sad for them (even though they clearly couldn’t give a shit about me or what I want in my womb, as a fertile, sexually active woman). This is an issue none of them could possibly have to deal with directly, due to their gender or age. Saying you are against abortion, when you think abortion = killing babies, is such a simple black-and-white issue I think it really gives them comfort and makes them think they’re on the undeniable right side. There is really no point in discussing circumstances that lead up to unwanted pregnancy or the state of child care or maternity leave. You can’t see yourself as a white knight if the issue is clouded. So they stick to that one issue, that one very clear window of opportunity – keeping that fetus alive from conception (or pregnancy test) to delivery. Reminds me the bit of some kind of sport. They only care about guarding the net or whatever – defense, offense, strategy – nothing to do with them. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/25 "2010-03-12T19:53:26Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > I’m willing to bet that most have given little thought to it. So am I. Even when I was a pro-lifer, I had to support therapeutic abortion. So I can’t countenance “ending all abortion.” I abandoned the right-to-life stance when I realized it was useless. If women are sufficiently educated to avoid teratogens & deliver healthy babies (which is a major moral good); then women who want to end their pregnancies can certainly finagle something (and that’s far preferable to denying women education to “save babies”/“punish sluts”). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/26 "2010-03-13T00:42:20Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Never do they ask for the circumstances of abortion to be eliminated, or that women who would get abortions stop becoming pregnant. It is always about getting already pregnant women to not have the god-given right of abortions! Never and always, eh? Well, you did talk to a few, so that’s good enough for me. Boy, those pro-lifers are simpletons, aren’t they? Absolutely incapable of nuanced thought. I talked to a couple the other day. As a result I’ve concluded that pro-lifers always, absolutely always, wear glasses and nail polish. It’s true, I witnessed it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/27 "2010-03-13T00:44:34Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Never and always, eh? Well, you did talk to a few, so that’s good enough for me. Boy, those pro-lifers are simpletons, aren’t they? Absolutely incapable of nuanced thought. > > I talked to a couple the other day. As a result I’ve concluded that pro-lifers always, absolutely always, wear glasses and nail polish. It’s true, I witnessed it. I’m not sure the ones who carry signs in protests are a representative sample of pro-lifers in general. (I think the ones who one with nuanced thought find better things to do with their time - and better ways to convey their sentiments.) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/28 "2010-03-13T00:48:06Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Depends on who’s holding the sign. Fred Phelps, the Dalai Lama, and my Mom probably differ substantially in their notions of what “peace” means and what kind of action (or lack thereof) would be necessary to achieve it. Then you’d be in the camp trying to debate the efficacy of a given strategy for peace (for the latter). And I’d suggest that “peace” and “ending abortion” as outcomes aren’t terribly confounding notions. Pretty straightforward, unless we want to argue over the margins. > [@](#): > > Surely the details of “end[ing] abortion” is similarly dependent on who’s praying for it. But the outcome is not. Hence my questions: “Really, this seems mysterious? … Or do you really just want to debate the practicality of ending abortions?” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/29 "2010-03-13T00:49:16Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m not sure the ones who carry signs in protests are a representative sample of pro-lifers in general. > > (I think the ones who one with nuanced thought find better things to do with their time - and better ways to convey their sentiments.) Perhaps. But we nuanced thinkers should try not to generalize in any event, right? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/30 "2010-03-13T00:52:10Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Perhaps. But we nuanced thinkers should try not to generalize in any event, right? Hey, I never claimed _I_ was a nuanced thinker! ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/31 "2010-03-13T00:54:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Hey, I never claimed _I_ was a nuanced thinker! Hey, we nuanced thinkers have a way of detecting each other’s presence. It’s like Spider-sense. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/32 "2010-03-13T01:06:58Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Hey, we nuanced thinkers have a way of detecting each other’s presence. It’s like Spider-sense. Okay, fine, you caught me. And if you want to get all nuanced about it…then it’s perfectly fine for nuanced thinkers to generalize when speaking of a population if one of the following conditions holds: 1. Your statement is true for 100% of the specific cases: “All humans are air-breathers” is a general statement about humans, but since it’s true for each individual human, it’s incontestable. 2. A sufficiently large enough percentage of the things or cases generally being spoken about have the trait. “People who smoke are more prone to getting lung cancer than people who don’t.” This statement is not considered too controversial - but it _can_ break down in the specific cases, such as a person who only smokes socially perhaps once a week compared with a non-smoker who works in a coal mine. The dodgy bit about general statements of this kind are when somebody pipes up and says, “I got your disproof right here!” This is a problem for you whenever it happens, but the more likely it is to happen with a randomly selected individual case, the worse off you are from an accuracy and argumentive standpoint. This makes such generalizations (and generalizations in general) more suspicious than non-generalizing statements. Notwithstanding this fact, though, sometime the exceptions are sufficiently rare that the generalization is still a meaningful, informative, and generally accurate statement about the members of the population, and thus is useful to such lofty nuanced folks as ourselves. Er, what was this thread about again? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/33 "2010-03-13T01:29:10Z")
True enough, if you’re doing so in the way described in [definition #1](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generalize): > [@](#): > > gen·er·al·ize > verb,-ized, -iz·ing. > –verb (used with object) > > 1. to infer (a general principle, trend, etc.) from particular facts, statistics, or the like. > 2. to infer or form (a general principle, opinion, conclusion, etc.) from only a few facts, examples, or the like. > 3. to give a general rather than a specific or special character or form to. > 4. to make general; bring into general use or knowledge. A true nuanced thinker, though, would have known I meant in the the sense of definition #2. I’m beginning to have my doubts about you. ---
**Author:** ![may\_be\_ignorant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c5a1d2/32.png) [@may\_be\_ignorant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/may_be_ignorant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/34 "2010-03-13T01:37:02Z")
I think you may be trying to advocate pro-choice, in a sneaky, sneaky manner. I do not object, but I don’t think yours is much of a question… ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/35 "2010-03-13T01:37:52Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > True enough, if you’re doing so in the way described in [definition #1](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generalize):A true nuanced thinker, though, would have known I meant in the the sense of definition #2. I’m beginning to have my doubts about you. At least if you change your mind you’ll have a [cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12219553&postcount=30)in place for your new position! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![toodlepip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@toodlepip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toodlepip)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/36 "2010-03-13T01:49:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > 1. Your statement is true for 100% of the specific cases: “All humans are air-breathers” is a general statement about humans, but since it’s true for each individual human, it’s incontestable. Except foetuses in utero. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/37 "2010-03-13T11:58:07Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Never and always, eh? Well, you did talk to a few, so that’s good enough for me. Boy, those pro-lifers are simpletons, aren’t they? Absolutely incapable of nuanced thought. > > I talked to a couple the other day. As a result I’ve concluded that pro-lifers always, absolutely always, wear glasses and nail polish. It’s true, I witnessed it. I think the term Pro-life is used wrong, most who claim to be pro-life forget the life once it is full term and needs welfare help or taxes to provide for them.Some think if they throw a dollar or two in the collection basket they have done their job. The term should be pro-birth or anti choice. Some of the same so called pro-life advocates are pro-gun and pro-war. They are not interested in the life of the woman who is already born; and since they cannot know her circumstance have no right to tell her what to do with her body. Nor would it be right to tell a woman she couldn’t have a child. But our society should (in my opinion) teach responsible parenthood from the time a child is old enough to understand what it means. That would include personal responsibility in all matters of life! ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/38 "2010-03-13T16:06:30Z")
I kind of wish they would just put the theory to a test, jump off a cliff and pray that god saves them. If religious people were empiricists, we would end up with less religion one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/39 "2010-03-13T16:14:12Z")
> [@Avarie537](#): > > Are they praying for celibacy-only education in schools? Or better contraceptive education? Or programs that reduce teenage sexual activity (do those even exist)? Are they praying for no woman to GET an abortion or for no woman to NEED an abortion? Are they praying for better social “safety nets” so no woman aborts due to economic circumstances? Better foster care programs so “unwanted” babies can be born and go into state care before being adopted? Why do you suppose it’s anything more complicated than advocating to criminalize abortion for everyone forever? I’m sure they’d have no problem with celibacy-only education, but I don’t think it’s any mystery what these people are lobbying for. It’s never real pregnancy prevention or supporting the unfortunate, it’s always about using the law to make sex have drastic consequences that enforce puritan morality. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055/40 "2010-03-13T17:32:30Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Ultimately, I pray for an end to the circumstances that end up making them decide to abort. What she (he?) said. I think regardless of what side of the debate you’re on, we can all agree that no woman should feel like she “has” to have an abortion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pray-to-end-abortion-so-what-exactly-are-they-praying-for/532055.md?page=3)