# Prayer and an omnipotent and infinitely wise God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2022, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-and-an-omnipotent-and-infinitely-wise-god/968902 "2022-08-01T02:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-and-an-omnipotent-and-infinitely-wise-god/968902/81 "2022-08-07T23:14:51Z")
Yes indeed, they sure would _try_ to change it. But Novikov won’t be disproven unless they succeed. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-and-an-omnipotent-and-infinitely-wise-god/968902/82 "2022-08-07T23:17:31Z")
Re Free Will If I offer Hypothetical Harry the 8 year old a dessert of ice cream or raw kale, I can know what he’ll choose. But he still has free will. One could argue that G-d made us and all our preferences were built in by G-d, thus we don’t have free will. I don’t have a rebuttal for that (yet) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2022, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-and-an-omnipotent-and-infinitely-wise-god/968902/83 "2022-08-07T23:39:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If I offer Hypothetical Harry the 8 year old a dessert of ice cream or raw kale, I can know what he’ll choose. But he still has free will. Bestest part? Even after you make it clear to HH that if he chooses the ice cream you’ll lock him in your basement and set him on fire . . . FOREVER, he’ll still have free will! ---
**Author:** ![MrLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@MrLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrLee)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-and-an-omnipotent-and-infinitely-wise-god/968902/84 "2022-08-14T23:15:25Z")
I worked for a Catholic school for several years, during which time I (as a teacher) was obliged to lead class prayers, despite being unapologetically atheist. One thing I learnt quite early on is that prayer is not supposed to be an injunction for God to directly intervene in human affairs (“Please smite my enemy! Make it so that I win the lottery! Ensure that Liverpool win the football this Saturday!”). Rather, it is typically a request for something _internal_, i.e. psychological strength, fortitude or clarity to assist in perception, understanding and decision making (i.e. “Grant me the strength and peace of mind to cope with [this thing that I am going through]”). When you think about it, this is a sensible way for the religious to avoid losing face. After all, if you keep on praying to God for shit to happen and it usually doesn’t, this could lead to questioning whether or not this prayer-business works at all (and if it doesn’t, is God even listening? Is He even _real_?). If the goal of prayer is something personal and intangible, it is a lot harder to objectively measure whether or not it has been successful, and it is therefore easier to perceive or conjure up a benefit and justification to keep on doing it. What’s more, this sidesteps the paradox outlined in the OP; namely that if God is infinitely wise and powerful, nothing He does is ever wrong, so praying for something in the world to change is not only pointless, it is also incorrect and offensive to His wisdom (and anyone who has read the Old Testament will know that you don’t want to go about doing _that_…). Slightly more charitably, one could argue that this kind of prayer is essentially an act of mindfulness and meditation, albeit one with a hefty dollop of role-playing and superstition. When someone prays for a relative who is unwell, really they are consciously reminding themselves that this particular element of their life is something important and meaningful to them; prayer is nothing more than a conscious acknowledgement of what is currently keeping you awake at night. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-and-an-omnipotent-and-infinitely-wise-god/968902/85 "2022-08-15T00:36:12Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > it is typically a request for something _internal_, i.e. psychological strength, fortitude or clarity to assist in perception, understanding and decision making (i.e. “Grant me the strength and peace of mind to cope with [this thing that I am going through]”). > > […]this sidesteps the paradox outlined in the OP; namely that if God is infinitely wise and powerful, nothing He does is ever wrong, so praying for something in the world to change is not only pointless, it is also incorrect and offensive to His wisdom (and anyone who has read the Old Testament will know that you don’t want to go about doing _that_…). This is very reasonable but it seems to me that praying for God to make you stronger or more clear-headed _is_ praying for something in the world to change. If God made me the way I am, why would he change me just because I asked? And I think your rationale makes sense. If God doesn’t give you a new bike\*, you might question His wisdom. But praying for emotional strength can be a powerful placebo, which might be fulfilled, and so you will be convinced that your wish was granted. * * * \*Emo Philips reference [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-and-an-omnipotent-and-infinitely-wise-god/968902.md?page=4)