PapaBear, I was in the military for eight years. I suggest you find out what happens to lesbians(or even suspected lesbians) when they are found out. Women have died in basic training, asleep in their beds, in recent history. Also, on some bases lesbian is defined as someone who won’t sleep with their superiors.
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Hunter Thompson
Slythe - How would you suggest I find out these things, apart from hearsay? I have no concrete evidence of what you say. At first glance, your posts seem to indicate you have a real grudge against the military and that you wouldn’t recommend military service for anyone, regardless of their sexual preference.
On the other hand, I have several first hand accounts of people who have successfully used military service as a stepping stone into a successful adult life.
The kids I deal with have very few options in life and your really going to have to give me more than antadotal evidence to convince me that I should discourage one of those options.
OK, Back from vacation.
Jodih managed to convince TheDude (and maybe even Cessandra) that it’s OK to lead others in prayer at government functions as long as x, y and z.
The issue here is really about what constitutes x, y and z. Johih’s view appears to be that as long as it’s not a government employee, or someone officially representing the government, it’s ok (in other words, ‘the government’ = ‘government employee’. But let’s see if this holds up.
If the school principal chooses to go to church and speak as a lay minister, is that OK? Of course, you say, and I agree. What if s/he leads a community group (non-government) in a prayer outside of church? Still OK? Probably, although some might argue that s/he ‘carries the authority’ of a school principle and shouldn’t be allowed to do it in the school district or whatever.
This disproves Jodih’s implication that the government is a ‘who’ rather than a ‘where’. It’s both, and both are relevant. People do have the right of free speech, but there are conficts between the different rights of the people, and one of them occurs at government functions, where people’s right to free speech conflicts with the right of the people not to have a religious government. And if you are speaking at a government function, you are, in a sense, representing the government (I suggest). There is no final proof either way on this, and the fact that it’s not a government employee isn’t necessarily the deciding factor. Jodih states that it is the deciding factor, and apparently assuming that the right of free speech is supreme over church/state separation, but no proof of why this should be so.
Regarding impromtu prayers, another limitation on free speech is the fact that you can’t interrupt a function or violate it’s procedures to give your message. The audience has no right to free speech there whatsoever. Would it be okay for the person in the audience to start heckling during a speech, or between speeches, interrupting the proceedings? Of course not. The person might well have been stopped in some way.
When the schedule called for silence, anyone speaking during that time, let alone speaking to the whole group, was violating the rules and should be stopped. They are interrupting the event just as surely as if it were during any other part of the ceremony. Free speech does not extend to interrupting ceremonies.
Jodih:
Answer: They should do whatever they would do to anyone else forcibly interrupting a government function, regardless of the content of their message. Whether it would also be church/state violation is a separate issue. I would say it is, because people have a right to government functions that are free from any form of religious promotion.
What if the religious right started doing this all over the country; getting “moments of silence” through legitimat processes and then interrupting them with prayers in order to promote religion. Everyone’s legally clean, right? After all, assuming the moment of silence is acceptable, then only the impromptu preacher is promoting religion, and, according to Jodih, that’s okay. Hey, what if a particularly religious president has a moment of silence before each State of the Union address, then allows the mics to pick up an impromptu prayer from an audience member.
These are differences of scale, not principle.
Cessandra: When is graduation? Do you plan to yell out “This prayer is unconsitutional!” during it? Go for it. Apparently, according to the principles Jodih espouses, this would be OK!
Jodih, not to kiss butt, but you are clearly the most thoughtful representative of the prayer-is-okay side on these threads, and that’s why I find your views interesting to debate.
For anyone interested, graduation was about a week ago. I was unable to attend but I hear the prayer went on as though I had not said a word. I think I just waited too long to start trying to fight it, but I fully intend to bring this up again next year, and the year after that if I have to. Let me just say thankyou to everyone who offered their advice, even those who disagreed with my choice of action.
Cave Canem. Beware the Dog.
Cessandra: Congratulations on graduating!
Everyone:
http://www.infidels.org/activist/current/wire/
This is the Internet Infidels newswire, which has lots of daily news about religion, including stuff about graduation prayers and other church/school issues.
Have a great Summer, Cessandra!
Keep it up, Cessandra, and congratulations.
I think you’re pretty cool.
Peace,
mangeorge
Work like you don’t need the money…
Love like you’ve never been hurt…
Dance like nobody’s watching! Source???
Cessandra said:
“I was unable to attend”
Hmmmm…you really didn’t think that I’d let that pass did you?
What does “unable to attend” really mean?
How about:
Didn’t have the grades, so they didn’t let you
Incapacitated due to illness
Out of the country
Mom wouldn’t allow you to go because you threatened to cause a big scene
Just couldn’t bear to bring yourself to attend beacause og the big, bad prayer.
Couldn’t attend due to theats upon your life.
We’d really like to know…besides, I haven’t heard from you since I proved to you that you were the OP of a scripture-based post in GQ…remember the “Stupid prayer at graudation thread” thread over in the Pit? Kinda faded from the scene after I proved you wrong…didn’t you?
BTW, I really think that your threat to screw with the graduation ceremonies of future graduating classes is completely classless and immature. You failed to impose your will upon your own class…take your loss like an adult and let it go.
Contestant #3
Contestant #3 said:
Frankly I couldn’t care less.
If you must know, I was out of town visiting a friend who is leaving the country for the summer.
Basically, I’d forgotten about the Raca post. So, I willingly concede that point. Other than that I found your pathetic allegations of hypocrisy beneath response. I am not an atheist, and as I have tried to make clear, I have an interest in scripture and religion. I go to mass. I follow the teachings of Christ, not because He may or may not be the son of God, but because to me, He made some sense. Guess what, C3, I even own a bible. And a Catholic prayer book. Does that make me a hypocrite, too?
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
– Henry David Thoreau
Cessandra said:
One cannot make up what is not there…
But besides that, he did the same thing in the original prayer at graduation thread. He first whined because he said you weren’t doing anything, and then when you responded to explain what you’d done (which he’d have known if he’d bothered to read the thread), he complained about that as well.
All in all, I think it’s safe to say that he will whine no matter what you do. This is why I rather doubt his claim that he is the father of three teenagers – he acts as immature as a 12-year-old, not like the father of one.
“The best medicine for misery is neither myth nor miracle, but naked truth.”
– Richard Walker, The Running Dogs of Loyalty: Honest Reflections on a Magical Zoo
Cessandra - every time I read one of your posts, I admire you even more.
Mastery is not perfection but a journey, and the true master must be willing to try and fail and try again
I’m the father of FOUR teenagers David.
Let me get this straight… She does little to nothing about the prayer at HER OWN graduation ceremony…a ceremony that she had previously droned on about how it was SO important to her…but then didn’t even attend for suspicious reasons…but she’s vows to TRY HARDER to screw up the ceremonies of future graduateS at her school and you losers APPLAUD HER???
No…you people are completely wrong…David doesn’t even HAVE any children (thank goodness!!). Do the human race a favor David Bloomberg…DON’T REPRODUCE PLEASE!!!
Contestant #3
Contestant #3 said:
You’re right, I didn’t do as much as I could have. I feel like I should have done more. So now, I will.
Yes it was. And it was important to the other four hundred seniors at my school, who should be allowed their secular graduations.
Okay! Okay, C3! You win! I failed Algebra 2! Does that make you feel better? I really hope it does; I hope at least you are able to gleam some satisfaction from my failure, because it’s caused me nothing but pain.
I am not trying to stop this prayer for any selfish reasons, but because I think it is wrong, so it does not matter to me whether this prayer happens at my graduation or next year’s or the one the year after that. What matters is that it’s happening, it’s wrong, and it needs to stop.
Somebody help me with a quote. It was by a survivor of the holocaust. It went something like:
‘First they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, but I was not a Trade Unionist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Catholics, but I was not a Catholic, so I said nothing. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak.’
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
– Henry David Thoreau
Cessandra said:
And, per his standard operating procedure, he will criticize you for that as well. He isn’t even worth the time to respond to him.
Precisely. Not that you’ll change the troll’s “mind.”
You’ll make a good mother someday, Cessandra. In fact, you’ll make a good contribution to our society no matter what you decide to do. After all, you’re already more mature than the supposed father of 4.“I don’t believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate
I don’t believe in forever or love as a mystical state
I don’t believe in the stars or the planets
Or angels watching from above” – Neil Peart, RUSH, “Ghost of a Chance”
Let’s examine this situation rationally…
We have here an 18-year old high school student that disrespects her parents and flunks out of graduation…in the other corner we have a self-righteous middle-aged man…neither have any children…
Each pats the other on the back, assuring each other that they’d make really good parents…
…nah, defies rational examination doesn’t it?
Contestant #3
256 posts on prayer at graduation. Leave it be, people…leave it be!!! The old chestnut of an obsession: religion and the American people.
C3 said:
Thanks for showing, once again, that you don’t have the foggiest idea what you’re talking about (as if we needed more evidence).
“I don’t believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate
I don’t believe in forever or love as a mystical state
I don’t believe in the stars or the planets
Or angels watching from above” – Neil Peart, RUSH, “Ghost of a Chance”
Um, two things?
One is that C#3 is obviously just pushing buttons. He hasn’t actually SAID anything, at least nothing pertinent or constructive. Just ignore him.
Second, if anyone is still interested in the topic, can I go back to something jodih said?
I don’t actually disagree with you that the principle “wrong behavior” in the case described was the refusal to readmit the student, though it seems to me there were others.(The article isn’t at that link anymore, unfortunately, so I’m having to infer what it said from other posts). What I must object to is the use of the phrase “acceptable to the majority of the audience”. Implicit in this is the idea that the right to freedom of religion (or its lack) is subject to the will of the majority, at least in certain instances. I don’t want ot put words in your mouth, but that is how I take this. Please correct my mistake: surely it doesn’t make any difference whether the majority approved or not? A right is individual, and the religion of the majority should be forced an individual under NO circumstances, even in the context of a graduation ceremenoy.
As for what action the school should have been taken, hindsight is 20/20. Perhaps the idea is that from now on the school should make clear to valedictorians that prayers are discouraged during their speeches, and why.
I have a question: why does everybody think that the school was so wrong in not letting the student re-enter his graduation? He broke a very common and well-known (at least around here) rule meant to protect students and others at school-sponsored events. I really don’t think that anything in the article suggested that the school was somehow pucnishing him for protesting the prayer, but rather for breaking the rule.
(For those of you who don’t know, most schools do enforce a no re-entry policy at school events. This is to keep students from leaving, getting drunk or high, etc. and then coming back.)
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
– Henry David Thoreau
Jodih wrote: “Legally, the government cannot establish or promote religion.”
As current court decisions go, this looks about right. It’s interesting to compare Jodih’s words against the written Constitution, wherein establishing a religion is banned but supporting a religion is not addressed. Also, the same Amendment prohibits the government from interfering with with religion.
As an atheist, I have no interest in religion, although I do believe it to be more a force for good than for harm. As a believer in civil liberties, it bothers me that our Constitution can be so easily “amended” by Court decisions into something different from what was originally written.
I feel like a member of a small minority in objecting to improperly reasoned Supreme Court decisions, even though I approve of the result (like Roe v. Wade.)
Cessandra asked:
Well, several things.
First, he wasn’t just prevented from re-entering the graduation, but also from attending a later dance (the rule did not apply to going to something later – he was barred because they were afraid he’d raise a stink about what had happened earlier).
Second, their violation of the law and rules caused him to leave. Thus, they should either enforce the rules or not – they should not do so selectively, as they did here. It certainly looks to me like they did it just to keep out a “trouble-maker.”
“I don’t believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate
I don’t believe in forever or love as a mystical state
I don’t believe in the stars or the planets
Or angels watching from above” – Neil Peart, RUSH, “Ghost of a Chance”