# Prayer. I don't get it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617 "2006-03-30T23:11:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/41 "2006-04-01T08:39:34Z")
> [@Malice](#): > > I don’t know. These are pithy responses, but unsatisfying. > > _…snip…_ > > Of course, others have posited the notion that prayer is less a direct and personal hotline to God than it is a contemplative state (for atonement, self-examination, etc)-- and that God is not the one whose needs are being met in prayer. > > Assuming you’re on board with prayer to begin with, I think that’s a far better rationale for it. I don’t disagree, just repeating what my uncle said. Here’s a perhaps more substantive argument: It’s easy for me to feel and say “If I didn’t have a disability disqualifying me from military service, I would’ve followed in my father’s footsteps & gone to Annapolis.” But, I cannot, since I know reality is a lot different than my heart’s intentions. In my opinion, the only way to prove your good intentions is to act them out. Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love God. If we cannot even maintain the most basic communication with God, are we really loving him? Sure, an omniscient God would know what is in our hearts, but for all we know, that same omniscient God might use “failure to even say hi to me” as a factor in deciding between loving him versus not loving him. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/42 "2006-04-01T11:57:34Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Cite, please? Where exactly did he pray that “all be one”? I will look it up in my Bible and get back to you. Then you will have the direct quote of the person who wrote it. I do not remember the chapter and verse but I do know it is there. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/43 "2006-04-01T12:06:46Z")
> [@yBeayf](#): > > The quote comes from several verses in John 17, though Christ was referring not to all men, but his followers: > It’s also important to remember that Christ was expressing His desire that His followers be one, but, as in anything else involving free moral choice, He would not force them to do so. It is noted that even his close followers were not one as some of the writings of Paul’s indicate,and there was much division in the early Church as to what to believe until the church fathers decided which writings were inspired and which were not. They did not include the writings of Thomas, and now The writings of Judus have been discovered. And only a few of Peter’s. Why Jesus had to pray for something is something I will never understand as he was supposed to be one with the Father and there are more divisions in Christianity than another religion. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/44 "2006-04-01T12:14:38Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It is noted that even his close followers were not one as some of the writings of Paul’s indicate,and there was much division in the early Church as to what to believe until the church fathers decided which writings were inspired and which were not. They did not include the writings of Thomas, and now The writings of Judus have been discovered. And only a few of Peter’s. > > Why Jesus had to pray for something is something I will never understand as he was supposed to be one with the Father and there are more divisions in Christianity than another religion. > > Monavis Thanks ybeayf! I would add that the way some people say a prayer is answered by God could be the same as praying to a tomato, a rock, a chicken etc. If one gets what one wants they can say oh(The whatever )answered my prayer, If they do not get it they can say (whatever) said no. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/45 "2006-04-01T14:02:29Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Thanks ybeayf! You shouldn’t be thanking him. As **ybeayf** himself pointed out, John 17 only refers to his disciples-- not to all men, as you incorrectly claimed. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/46 "2006-04-01T17:27:31Z")
> [@Pashnish Ewing](#): > > So has the subset filled that requirement\*? Sounds like your setting yourself up for a True Scotsman argument. As I read the Book of Acts, I see ample evidence of unity. They had their disagreements (the conflict between Peter and Paul, for example), but they managed to work through such differences. This is by no means a “True Scotsman” argument (which, FTR, is [not a true fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)). If someone claims that the disciples were indeed horribly disunited, then the burden of proof rests on the person making that claim. Moreover, as I’d like to remind you, the point remains… Christ did NOT pray for all peoples to be united, and so the claim made by **monavis** is simply incorrect. No moving of goalposts, please. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/47 "2006-04-01T17:30:10Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Taking Plantinga’s arguments seriously means embracing the incoherent (free will), and ignoring evil and suffering that has no particular relevance to free agents: i.e. natural disasters. \<\\>. Not true, because Plantinga covers that in his discussions of [“natural evil”](http://www.iep.utm.edu/e/evil-evi.htm). In fact, your comment demonstrates my point: Some people may claim that the problem of evil is utterly fatal to theism, but that does not reflect the state of modern scholarship in philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/48 "2006-04-01T18:50:07Z")
I destroyed Plantinga fairly effortlessly and I’m not a trained philosopher. It simply isn’t accurate to say that modern philosphy has decided that a problem has been solved. Philosophy doesn’t work that way and more than one real philospher has refuted the Free Will defense. It doesn’t hold up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/49 "2006-04-01T19:11:15Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It is noted that even his close followers were not one as some of the writings of Paul’s indicate,and there was much division in the early Church as to what to believe until the church fathers decided which writings were inspired and which were not. They did not include the writings of Thomas, and now The writings of Judus have been discovered. And only a few of Peter’ Those are all pseudoepigraphical works, not the actual writings of apostles. We don’t have any authentic writings or testimony from any of the apostles (or anyone else who ever met Jesus) so we don’t really know what they thought or how they viewed Jesus. We don’t even really know if they believed in a resurrection or believed that Jesus was God. There was evidently some tension between paul and the “Pillars” of Jerusalem. Paul does not say that those tensions were smoothed out. Acts does but Acts is pretty late (late 90’s or early 2nd century), was not written by a witness of anything (Luke as a travelling companion of Paul is 2nd century Christian folklore. The author is actually a complete unknown), and represents an unabashed expression of apology and support for Pauline Christianity. It cannot be assumed that any of the claimed events regarding the Jerusalem Pillars are authentic history. There is much evidence to suggest that early Christian communities were extremely widely divided. Some of the earliest Christian theologies seem quite bizarre today. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/50 "2006-04-01T19:56:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Not true, because Plantinga covers that in his discussions of “natural evil”. In fact, your comment demonstrates my point: Some people may claim that the problem of evil is utterly fatal to theism, but that does not reflect the state of modern scholarship in philosophy. Acting as if philosophy is like a science is simply dishonest. The arguments of Plantinga and others are deeply unconvincing, and as with so much of this work, the responses simply retreat to incoherencies or assert that essentially any imaginable or arbitrary level of evil or suffering could be justified. If you disagree, then why not present arguments instead of declaring the discussion to be over? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/51 "2006-04-02T04:11:26Z")
The prayers I have the most difficulty understanding are **prayers for mercy or deliverance**. What mother does not pray for God to spare the life of a gravely sick child? Yet to do so is to presume that God will change his omniscient will in response to supplication. If God has a perfect plan for everyone wherein some die young, and others are spared certain death, is it not the height of arrogance to plead for God to change his plan? And if God responds to such prayers, does that not demonstrate his plan is not so perfect, nor his will so divine? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/52 "2006-04-02T12:33:59Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > You shouldn’t be thanking him. As **ybeayf** himself pointed out, John 17 only refers to his disciples-- not to all men, as you incorrectly claimed. Was he then talking only to his disciples when he told them to spread the good news? So the followers of the Apostles should not have gone around preaching such as Luke,and Mark as they were not disciples. It is a mattter of interpetation. It can be interped to mean all the followers not just a few. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/53 "2006-04-02T12:37:45Z")
Are you stating that Jesus didn’t want all humans to follow him? Just a few? Momavis ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/54 "2006-04-02T16:17:02Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The prayers I have the most difficulty understanding are **prayers for mercy or deliverance**. What mother does not pray for God to spare the life of a gravely sick child? Yet to do so is to presume that God will change his omniscient will in response to supplication. If God has a perfect plan for everyone wherein some die young, and others are spared certain death, is it not the height of arrogance to plead for God to change his plan? And if God responds to such prayers, does that not demonstrate his plan is not so perfect, nor his will so divine? But what if it’s part of God’s plan to allow human beings to influence what happens, whether through their actions or through their prayers? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/55 "2006-04-02T16:30:50Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > > [@Fear Itself](#): > > > > The prayers I have the most difficulty understanding are prayers for mercy or deliverance. What mother does not pray for God to spare the life of a gravely sick child? Yet to do so is to presume that God will change his omniscient will in response to supplication. If God has a perfect plan for everyone wherein some die young, and others are spared certain death, is it not the height of arrogance to plead for God to change his plan? And if God responds to such prayers, does that not demonstrate his plan is not so perfect, nor his will so divine? > > But what if it’s part of God’s plan to allow human beings to influence what happens, whether through their actions or through their prayers? Then God is a prick. You would be talking about a God who holds innocent children hostage to his own vanity and to the whims of other people. Are you suggesting hjat God is justified in torturing a child to death with cancer if its parents don’t pray? This would be especially egregious since God has never given any evidence of his own existence or provided anyone with any way to know that they _have_ to pray to get God to stop torturing their children. It also needs to be pointed out that lots of people pray their asses off and their children die anyway. Why does God ignore _those_ prayers? What about the people who don’t pray a lick and see their children recover? Your hypothesis that God is allowing people to influence his decisions through prayer would presume that there is any statistical correlation between prayer and results. There isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/56 "2006-04-02T16:54:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How do you know if you should be grateful? How can you tell the difference between providence and random luck? What if you got something by your own hard work? Why should you thank God for your own accomplishments? > > If you credit God for good stuff, do you also blame him for bad stuff? If not, why not? It’s like George Carlin says- you never hear a football player say that “Jesus made me fumble.” My view on prayer is that it’s like the follow-through on a golf swing or basketball shot. It doesn’t affect how the ball flies, it just improves your form in the execution. Even though I have adopted atheism sometimes I find it useful to pretend there’s a god and pray to it for guidance, clarity, thankfulness, or whatever. It’s just a form of visualization that helps me be more present in my thoughts. I find it not very enlightening to pray to myself. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/57 "2006-04-02T16:56:52Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > But what if it’s part of God’s plan to allow human beings to influence what happens, whether through their actions or through their prayers? Then I would say that is evidence that God is not perfect, does not have divine will, and doesn’t know what is the right thing to do unless his subjects influence him. Is this the God that would inspire faith? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/58 "2006-04-02T17:22:52Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Then I would say that is evidence that God is not perfect, does not have divine will, and doesn’t know what is the right thing to do unless his subjects influence him. Is this the God that would inspire faith? **Diogenes** raises the issue of the Problem of Pain, a serious discussion of which would take a whole long thread of its own. To stay on the topic of this thread, I’ll just say that _if_ God has a divine plan _in the sense that he has every detail planned out, with no room for human beings to have any freedom or make any choices that would have any effect on anything that happens_, regardless of anything we do, say, or pray, then your objection is a valid one, and it would indeed be futile to ask God to change anything. But I don’t believe this; I believe God has given us a certain amount of freedom, and the opportunuty to make choices and do things that actually matter. If that makes you think less of God, well… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/59 "2006-04-02T17:31:06Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > To stay on the topic of this thread, I’ll just say that _if_ God has a divine plan _in the sense that he has every detail planned out, with no room for human beings to have any freedom or make any choices that would have any effect on anything that happens_, regardless of anything we do, say, or pray, then your objection is a valid one, and it would indeed be futile to ask God to change anything. But I don’t believe this; I believe God has given us a certain amount of freedom, and the opportunuty to make choices and do things that actually matter. If that makes you think less of God, well… To narrow the topic even more, I don’t think it matters to this discussion whether some people believe that God plans every jot and tittle. The question is, does God spare children (or whoever) if their loved ones pray for it? And if so, what does that say about God? You say he does not plan everything; in your theology, is \*anything \* predestined by God? If so, I would think that ending lives would rank pretty high on the things God would have a plan for. Or is it _all_ subject to human will? In which case, why do we need God at all? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617/60 "2006-04-02T20:10:27Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The question is, does God spare children (or whoever) if their loved ones pray for it? Clearly, God doesn’t always; observation proves that. Does he sometimes? and if so, when and why? I think if you asked a whole bunch of Christians (or other believers in God) that question, you’d get three kinds of answers. Some would say no, that God never interferes with the natural order of things. Prayer might promote healing through a placebo effect, or help you to find peace and acceptance with whatever happens, but it won’t cause God to step in and tweak reality for you. Some would say that God answers some prayers—or that he answers all of them but sometimes his answer is “no”—and then give some explanation as to why God grants certain requests but not others (for example, based on how much faith a person has). Such explanations, IMHO, range from “not entirely satisfactory” to “completely unacceptable,” but it’s possible that some contain at least a glimmer of truth or plausibility. And some would say that God grants some requests, but they don’t even try to explain which ones, or why. They just say God and God’s ways and God’s point of view are beyond our understanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayer-i-dont-get-it/350617.md?page=4)