# Prayers that Actually Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2001, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778 "2001-06-22T13:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/21 "2001-06-23T12:01:22Z")
Whenever I ask theists why such terrible things happen, they usually say “God gives us free will and does not interfere” Yet, by praying, they are asking God to interfere! No, he won’t stop wars or earthquakes, but he’ll make sure you catch your plane on time. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/22 "2001-06-23T12:47:54Z")
**Rjung** > [@](#): > > Silly wabbit, you can’t prove negatives. Nonsense. If that’s the case, you’ve just made an unprovable assertion. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/23 "2001-06-23T14:38:18Z")
Obviously, Lib, there are _some_ negatives you can prove. For example, I can prove there is not a moose in my sock drawer. However, I could not prove that there isn’t an invisible, incorporeal, silent, 2" moose in that same drawer. Similarly, as you well know, we can’t prove that there is _not_ a god. And that is the kind of “negative” he was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![nerv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85e7bf/32.png) [@nerv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nerv)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/24 "2001-06-23T16:53:19Z")
I have one that always works for me: “Dear God, please do not let the spiders crawl up my nostrils and lay eggs in my brain, causing it to swell up and explode my craniu…” Uuuuuuuuugh! Damn, guess it doesn’t work anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Father\_Pacelli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Father\_Pacelli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Father_Pacelli)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/25 "2001-06-23T17:28:57Z")
Nonsense. If there _was_ a universal prayer that always worked no matter what, the whole world would know about it by now. It couldn’t be kept secret. If I were God, I wouldn’t allow such a prayer to be created. It’d be more of a magic spell than anything else. I suppose the real question is “why doesn’t God always answer prayer”? Good question–you’ll have to ask Him. My guess would be that a prayer that always worked would ruin the whole notion of faith. Every religion is going to claim a “never been known to fail” prayer. The elderly Catholic lady with her St. Anthony prayer card; the devout Muslim who believes that his praying facing Mecca five times daily keeps him free from harm, etc. It really all boils down to faith–if you want something bad enough, you will get it eventually. I’m a Deist, myself. If God was interested in what we do here below, then you are faced with a God that sat by and did nothing whilst 250 million people died of famine, war and genocide during the past 85 years. I can believe in a God that would do that, but that right away eliminates the notion that “God is good all the time” and “Jesus answers prayer”. I’d like to hear from religious fundamentalists (and I don’t mean just Christian ones) as to how you can reconcile the facts that I’ve presented in this paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/26 "2001-06-23T20:10:15Z")
**David B** > [@](#): > > Obviously, Lib, there are some negatives you can prove. For example, I can prove there is not a moose in my sock drawer. However, I could not prove that there isn’t an invisible, incorporeal, silent, 2" moose in that same drawer. Are you saying that vision and hearing are proof? > [@](#): > > Similarly, as you well know, we can’t prove that there is not a god. Depends on what you mean by “god”. > [@](#): > > And that is the kind of “negative” he was talking about. I don’t think that conclusion can be drawn from what he said. At any rate, I’m not sure what “kind” of negative you mean. Does it apply only to things that can’t be seen or heard? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/27 "2001-06-23T20:15:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > **Silly wabbit, you can’t prove negatives.** My point exactly, so is it wise to make unproven assertions? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/28 "2001-06-23T20:30:51Z")
Lib, haven’t we gone thru this before? Instead of trying to sound all vague and mysterious (like talking about how it depends on what I mean by “god” and saying you’re not sure what “kind” of negative I mean), how about just coming out and saying whatever it is you want to say? People talk about not being able to prove a negative all the time and most of us understand exactly what they’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/29 "2001-06-24T07:44:46Z")
**David** I’m on your side here, but I’ve got to take issue with that. Being rigorous and determining exactly what a statement means and its implications are the heart of good philosophy. If we didn’t question these things, we’d never learn anything. I think **Lib** ’s questions are fair enough. HOWEVER we’ve gone over this ground in GD about three and a half thousand times before, so in this case I think **Lib** knows EXACTLY what that statement means. Or do we have to start resurrecting Hume and Popper AGAIN? pan ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/30 "2001-06-24T11:21:28Z")
This is not a closed universe. New people appear all the time. A point that has been made before is no less pertinent simply for having been made. If the matter had been settled in the past, there would be no need to raise it in the present. That you cannot prove a negative is nonsense. Jabberwocky. A self-contradicting assertion. Period. That is as plain as I can get. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/31 "2001-06-24T12:01:52Z")
Since new people do, indeed, appear all the time, why not point them to where this discussion has been had before rather than acting like it’s the first time you’ve brought this up. Like kabbes said, you know exactly what the statement means, but you’re acting like _you’re_ the newbie. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/32 "2001-06-24T21:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SexyWriter \* > Are those who thank god that their kids cancer wasn’t worse. Or those whose home is destroyed by a tornado and they thank god that no one was hurt. If they think god saved them from something worse, aren’t they a little pissed that he gave the kid cancer/destroyed their home in the first place? Or didn’t they think to send up the anti-cancer prayer in time? > > -L [Look here](http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1472/OurPrayer.html), then let me know if you _really_ want to discuss this. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/33 "2001-06-24T22:21:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > **Since new people do, indeed, appear all the time, why not point them to where this discussion has been had before rather than acting like it’s the first time you’ve brought this up.** Because people come here for _discussion_, saying “yeah, yeah, just go and read this newbie” doesn’t give them the (slim)chance to add their own slant on the whole debate (or do we already know everything?). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/34 "2001-06-24T23:46:04Z")
Oh, good grief. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70000) is where the matter was covered in General Questions fairly recently. I gave a [link](http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/philo/negative.html) there, which gives examples of proving negatives and suggests that this whole absurd notion was likely concocted by strong atheists on usenet. I mean, think about it. Every modus ponens has a contrapositive. And again, the assertion “you can **NOT** prove a negative” is self-contradictory, and therefore false. And [here](http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~larryc/proofs/proofs.contrapositive.html) is an example of proof by contrapositive. I agree with Mangetout. Dismissing newbies with commentless links is cliquish and elitist to the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/35 "2001-06-25T00:29:36Z")
Huh huh, you said “modus ponens”! ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/36 "2001-06-25T00:57:51Z")
**Edlyn,** your heart’s in the right place, but that wasn’t an answer. **SexyWriter:** it don’t work that way. God didn’t send the cancer, or the tornado, that your favorite prayer is thanking God for sparing them or their kid from. Those are simply in the nature of the world God created. Now if you want to take issue with how the world was created: talk to God (if you get an answer, let us know) or the shout at the sky to rail against the universe generally, according to your beliefs. Back to the OP: While not generally being the praying sort, this is one that _may_ have actually worked for me: “Great God and sonny Jesus, save my ass from this fucked-up mess that I’ve gotten myself into. And pass the ammo. Amen.” In the atheists defense, I was in pretty good company to start with at the time\*\*\*\*\*. _ **ExTank** “Mostly Harmless :p”_ [Black Knights!](http://pao.hood.army.mil/1CD_1-5Cav/) [sub]\*\*\*\*\*Knight Strike I, 20 February 1991.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/37 "2001-06-25T02:02:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ExTank \* > Edlyn, your heart’s in the right place, but that wasn’t an answer. Thanks, but I already knew where my heart was. 🙂 It wasn’t intended to be an answer, but an opportunity for SexyWriter to pause and consider his/her comments. If they were made sincerely, I’ll provide my perspective. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/38 "2001-06-25T02:29:08Z")
Mangetout & Lib: You are quite missing the point. Indeed, I don’t want to just send some newbie off on a link hunt, but nor do I want them to have to plow through Lib’s purposely dense comments when they’ve been hashed out before. So rather than redensifying an unrelated thread (hey, it sounds like it _could_ be a word), it makes a lot more sense to let new readers know that this isn’t the first time Lib has come across this issue, and he’s only _playing_ dumb. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![berdollos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@berdollos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/berdollos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/39 "2001-06-25T02:42:53Z")
Nobody on this board has posted a sincere prayer that they have used and gotten positive results. Have I stumbled upon a hornet’s nest of skeptics and atheists? Or have the many people who believe in and use prayer simply not responded? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/40 "2001-06-25T03:31:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by berdollos \* > \*\*Nobody on this board has posted a sincere prayer that they have used and gotten positive results. > > Have I stumbled upon a hornet’s nest of skeptics and atheists? > > Or have the many people who believe in and use prayer simply not responded? \*\* You know, there’s a third option. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778.md?page=3)