# Prayers that Actually Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2001, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778 "2001-06-22T13:54:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/101 "2001-06-30T21:17:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > **…and God just made it so we would intervene. Would the lady still, say have gotten her mail that day? Yes, but He made it so that I would be going by as she was outside.** You’re confusing God with coincidence. The old lady would have been at that spot in time whether you had prayed or not. Now, let’s say that your praying boosted your spirits and made you go faster, and that if you had maintained your old speed you would have missed the old lady altogether. Was that a benevolent act of God? Well, maybe. But how do you know that the extra zip that your prayer gave you didn’t in fact cause you to miss intersecting with some old farmer with a truck who would have said, “Lebanon? Yeah, I’m heading that way. Just throw your bike in the back, and I’ll give you a ride.” In that case you would have been better off without praying. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/102 "2001-06-30T22:56:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Mangetout wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > I could tell you about some prayers that have actually worked, but how could I present it to you in a way that didn’t seem subjective and biased? > > Simple. We could do a _double-blind placebo trial_. > > We take a group of volunteers, and randomly divide them into two groups: the “control” group, and the “experimental” group. The members of the “experimental” group pray real prayers. The members of the “control” group are given **placebo prayers**. At the end of the trial, the test-administrators ask the participants whether their prayers actually worked, and if so, what percentage of their prayers worked and what percentage didn’t work. > > Since the participants do not know whether they’re praying real prayers or placebo prayers, the trial is said to be “blind.” We make it “double-blind” by having the test administrators **also** kept in the dark as to whether each participant was praying for real or using a placebo, so that their line of questioning won’t give away any clues to the participants. Then, we tabulate the results, and if there is a **statistically significant** difference in the rate of prayer success between the control group and the experimental group, then we can say, with certainty, that prayers actually work. > > So! Who wants to volunteer? \*\* Assuming for a moment that you’re serious (what is a ‘placebo prayer’?), I don’t think this would work; I’ve never prayed for anything arbitrarily; may I invite you to say ‘Oh how convenient’ ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/103 "2001-06-30T23:58:41Z")
I would like empirical evidence for just one person who miraculously re-gained a lost body part because he or she prayed for it or because loved ones and/or perfect strangers prayed for it to happen. Just one. To the person who said Diana could not have been helped by prayer because she was already dead: Are you saying God could not have restored her? ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/104 "2001-07-01T04:23:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > > **…and God just made it so we would intervene. Would the lady still, say have gotten her mail that day? Yes, but He made it so that I would be going by as she was outside.** > > You’re confusing God with coincidence. The old lady would have been at that spot in time whether you had prayed or not. > > Now, let’s say that your praying boosted your spirits and made you go faster, and that if you had maintained your old speed you would have missed the old lady altogether. Was that a benevolent act of God? Well, maybe. But how do you know that the extra zip that your prayer gave you didn’t in fact cause you to miss intersecting with some old farmer with a truck who would have said, “Lebanon? Yeah, I’m heading that way. Just throw your bike in the back, and I’ll give you a ride.” In that case you would have been better off without praying. > \*\* Actually, I don’t think I’m confusing God with coincidence. The first time I prayed for something and it happend, I chalked it up to coincidence. 2,3,4,5… it became less and less coincidence and more and more based on faith. I’ve let God take control of my life. So in a way, I don’t need to pray because I know that He will do what’s best for me. But praying for me is basically talking with God. One of the central ideas in Lutheranism is that you should have a personal relationship with God. And just like anyother relationship, you need to communicate. Normally, when something I pray for doesn’t work out, it turns out for the better. I’m not saying I have a perfect life, but I know that God is in control and that I may have to go through tough times, but in the end it’ll be for the best. Oh and FTR, I don’t ride with strangers 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/105 "2001-07-01T19:00:43Z")
cykrider wrote: > [@](#): > > The first time I prayed for something and it happend, I chalked it up to coincidence. 2,3,4,5… it became less and less coincidence and more and more based on faith. How many times have you prayed for something, and it didn’t happen? How does this compare with the number of times you’ve prayed and it did happen, i.e. what’s the “batting average” of your prayers? Of the things you prayed for that did happen, what were the odds of such a thing happening by coincidence? Were you praying for truly unusual, specific things, like, “God, please make a purple elephant walk down the street outside my house in the next 5 minutes”, or were you praying for things that might be inclined to happen anyway, such as, “God, please let the mailman arrive on time today”? How many prayers were for things that you had some personal control over, such as, “God, grant me the strength to pedal my bike a little faster”? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/106 "2001-07-01T20:26:07Z")
Tracer: > [@](#): > > … what’s the “batting average” of your prayers? I think I can answer that, Tracer. cykrider: > [@](#): > > \*\*Normally, when something I pray for doesn’t work out, it turns out for the better. I’m not saying I have a perfect life, but I know that God is in control and that I may have to go through tough times, but in the end it’ll be for the best. \*\* So even when God _doesn’t_ answer his prayers, he really _is_ answering his prayers. So the percent of time that God does/doesn’t answer his prayers is 100%. It’s interesting that **cykrider** ends up making a round about case (1) for a non-interventionist God and (2) that prayer = meditation. > [@](#): > > \*\*So in a way, I don’t need to pray because I know that He will do what’s best for me. \*\* So in other words, pray all you want for anything you want. God’s going to do whatever he feels like anyway. > [@](#): > > \*\*But praying for me is basically talking with God. \*\* In other words, prayer for cykrider is what others call meditation. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/107 "2001-07-01T20:36:33Z")
It does seem that praying like that is just a meditative technique. If you only believe that god might do it then you don’t have enough faith for the prayer to work. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/108 "2001-07-01T20:44:30Z")
God ALWAYS answers prayers. But sometimes his answer is NO! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/109 "2001-07-01T20:48:54Z")
**Bill Norton** I don’t understand your mean-spirited post. Were you attempting to paraphrase Cykrider? If so, I think you did a poor job of it. You also seem to know less about meditation than you do about prayer. Meditation is the art of silencing one’s conscious mind in order to hear one’s inner voice. Prayer is petition. Cykrider was not hedging, as you imply, when he said that “when something I pray for doesn’t work out, it turns out for the better.” Your twisting his words does not change what he said. Clearly, he means, not that God did not answer his prayer, but that God answered his prayer in an unexpected way that turned out better than he’d hoped. An even more bizarre paraphrase was your second one. Cykrider said nothing like what you offered as “other words”. Honestly, if you don’t understand, say so. If you disagree, say so. But cut out the straw man word-twisting, 'mkay? Cykrider meant that God does always what is right. He always answers the prayers of the faithful. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/110 "2001-07-01T20:55:06Z")
I talked to God, Called Him up on the phone. But he put me on hold, “Don’t go away,” I was told. I said, “For God’s sake, I won’t!” I talked to God On His private line. He said, “How you doin’, Joe?” I said, “My name is Dave And I’m doin’ fine.” I talked to God, Your basic Heavenly Host. But not like I planned, I got His right-hand man, The good ol’ Holy Ghost. – “I Talked To God,” by Lu Janis AKA Dick Monda (There’s more, but I won’t bore you unless asked.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/111 "2001-07-01T21:07:15Z")
Rather than put my own 2 cents worth in this debate, I’ll contribute some other people’s 2 cents. > [@](#): > > **Bret Harte:** The creator who could put a cancer in a believer’s stomach is above being interfered with by prayers. > [@](#): > > \*\*Ivan Turgenev: \*\* Whatever a man prays for, he prays for a miracle. Every prayer reduces itself to this: “Great God, grant that twice two be not four.” > [@](#): > > **Ambrose Bierce:** PRAY: To ask that the laws of the univers be annulled in behalf of a single petioner, confessedly unworthy. [More quotes of this ilk](http://doorbell.net/tlr/god.htm) ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/112 "2001-07-01T21:13:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\ ***Bill Norton** > > I don’t understand your mean-spirited post. Were you attempting to paraphrase Cykrider? If so, I think you did a poor job of it. You also seem to know less about meditation than you do about prayer. Meditation is the art of silencing one’s conscious mind in order to hear one’s inner voice. Prayer is petition. > > Cykrider was not hedging, as you imply, when he said that “when something I pray for doesn’t work out, it turns out for the better.” Your twisting his words does not change what he said. Clearly, he means, not that God did not answer his prayer, but that God answered his prayer in an unexpected way that turned out better than he’d hoped. > > An even more bizarre paraphrase was your second one. Cykrider said nothing like what you offered as “other words”. Honestly, if you don’t understand, say so. If you disagree, say so. But cut out the straw man word-twisting, 'mkay? Cykrider meant that God does always what is right. He always answers the prayers of the faithful. \*\* Good call there buddy, couldn’t really have said it better myself. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/113 "2001-07-01T21:33:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **I don’t understand your mean-spirited post.** Hmmm… I really don’t see my post as mean spitited. On the other hand: > [@](#): > > Were you attempting to paraphrase Cykrider? If so, I think you did a poor job of it. You also seem to know less about meditation than you do about prayer. Now **that** may be seen as mean spitited. > [@](#): > > Meditation is the art of silencing one’s conscious mind in order to hear one’s inner voice. Prayer is petition. It is quite obvious from this thread that prayer and meditation mean different things to different people. One of the issues that has come up in this post is the difference petween prayer as petition (“God, make the hills go away”) vs. prayer as meditation (“God give me the strength to get over those hills”). In fact you can see that starting in the second post. No one is denying the benefit of prayer-as-meditation. We are simply looking for any evidence of prayer-as-petition ever working in a better than chance fashion. And, yes, Cykrider was hedging when he said “when something I pray for doesn’t work out, it turns out for the better.” > [@](#): > > \*\*He always answers the prayers of the faithful. \*\* No he does not!!! ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/114 "2001-07-01T22:06:43Z")
**Fenris** and others wondering about dichotomy between a loving God vs. evil may want to check out [this](http://www.geocities.com/sokkerstud143/theod.htm). It’d probably spur a thread of it’s own, but I know Fenris was talking about it earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Mambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@Mambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mambo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/115 "2001-07-01T22:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > **Unless prayer proponents demonstrate evidence and explanations more powerful than those given by tarot card readers, I am afraid I must rank them as approximately equal in effectiveness.** I understand your point and I felt the same way as well. For me, prayer alone doesn’t do a thing but prayer with God, with Jesus, is what is effective. Prayer is an open communication with God. If you go to him as a vulnerable sinner, seeking mercy, He will grant it to you. What prayer is not is a _test_ of God. IMHO God assumes when you come to Him that you have already acknowledged who He is and that you are coming to Him for mercy, guidance, forgiveness, etc. But if you come to Him asking for a miracle that’s like asking Him to prove Himself to you. “It is written again, _‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’_” (Matt. 4:7) We have to prove ourselves to God not God to us. I know what people say to this: it is a weak way out of answering the question. I don’t think so. God has already proved Himself to us (some of us at least) throughout history through the Bible, the prophets, and through Jesus Himself. When I accept Jesus as my Savior, I have already been convinced completely that He is God. And I also know, through the Bible, what it is He wants us to ask Him for in prayer such as forgiveness and mercy. So when I go to Him in prayer I am not going to ask Him to show me evidence of His existence (I have already been convinced) I am going to ask Him to let me have more love in my life, to become more forgiving, to be more charitable. These are the things He wants us to ask for and without a doubt He gives us. It is important to recognize how insignificant material goods and money are to God. Jesus preached a life of ascetic living. Anything you get over that has been a blessing from God. So when you come to God asking for a Mercedes to fall in your lap, He probably won’t do it. But if you ask Him for spiritual goods then He will give it to you in abundance. Look at what Jesus taught us to pray for while we’re praying: God’s will to be done; forgiveness of sins and the ability to forgive; to be led from temptation. The more you ask for these things, the more you will receive. That’s all I can say. ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/116 "2001-07-01T23:20:20Z")
Very well said. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/117 "2001-07-01T23:24:34Z")
Bullshit. _Hey, God! I’m Here_ There, I did my part, now it’s his turn. I’m waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/118 "2001-07-02T01:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > Very well said. I’ll second that. Thank you Mambo. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts and find them refreshing from many others in this thread. I was visiting a Gnostic site today and while some of their beliefs seems pretty foreign to me, I agreed with what they stated about (what we would describe as) nonbelievers. They said that not all humans are spiritual (minded) and those who are not spiritual are earthbound and materialistic beings who recognize only the physical reality. They have little or no awareness of the spiritual world beyond matter and mind. It is little wonder that they demand material proof such as pink elephants flying across the sky or the like. I don’t mean that as a put down, but with the understanding that for them, they need to be dazzled into belief. But no one can be dazzled into belief no matter what they witnessed. As the rest of us already know, they must first recognize the spirit within themselves. And if they do not know Him, how could they believe in prayer? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/119 "2001-07-02T01:20:58Z")
**Mambo** , thanks for the clearest (and kindest) explanation of effective prayer that I’ve come across recently - asking not for anything specific outside the self, but just to make the self better, if I understand correctly. However, isn’t it equally possible to become a better, more loving, more tolerant and honest person by simply recognizing our shortcomings, wanting to fix them, and working toward that end, not by asking some higher power to do the job for us? ---
**Author:** ![Albert\_Rose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Albert\_Rose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Albert_Rose)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778/120 "2001-07-02T02:40:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ElvisL1ves_ > **However, isn’t it equally possible to become a better, more loving, more tolerant and honest person by simply recognizing our shortcomings, wanting to fix them, and working toward that end, not by asking some higher power to do the job for us?** In my limited understanding, I’ve come to believe that this is what God wants us to do. And prayer is a way to facilitate (not replace) Recognizing, Wanting and Working. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prayers-that-actually-work/69778.md?page=7)