# Praying if you are agnostic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583 "2015-05-22T12:30:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/41 "2015-05-25T00:49:24Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Technically, the story of Adam and Eve is primarily a metaphor about humans “discovering” moral code (or more accurately, developing the basis of morality, condensed from centuries into an evening). No part of Genesis, on up to Exodus 20, was ever meant to be taken literally, only ignoramuses, charlatans and SDAs preach that doctrine. Yes, I can buy that as an acceptable interpretation of Genesis. However, **Oddball\_92** sounds like the kind of Christian who _does_ take it literally. I was just pointing out the implications of his claims. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/42 "2015-05-26T19:13:22Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > So, collective punishment, whether we deserve it or not. > Also, isn’t your God the one who commanded the Israelites to slay the Caananites’ infants by dashing their heads against rocks? The God who hardened Pharaoh’s heart to refuse Moses, and then slew all the first-born sons of the Egyptians? The God who sent bears to slay children for making fun of one of his prophets? > > Your God’s not worth worshipping. Oh, you deserve it…and so do I. In God’s eyes we are all evil as we do not obey His commands. That’s why He sent His son, Jesus (who was the only one who did NOT deserve it), to die on the cross in order to redeem US in God’s eyes. As far as the other items you mentioned there is ample number of articles explaining the Christian point of view on these topics. Just research it. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/43 "2015-05-26T19:30:11Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Oh, you deserve it…and so do I. In God’s eyes we are all evil as we do not obey His commands. No offense intended, but fuck that noise. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/44 "2015-05-26T19:34:04Z")
> [@The\_Angry\_Badger](#): > > So why does he do it then? If he is a truly omnipotent god, surely he would have the power to choose who can or can’t go to hell. If he is a truly loving god, he would accept pretty much everyone except the truly evil and irredeemable. If he is not omnipotent or loving, then he is not the god that you think you’re worshipping. > > Except, apparently, if you reject him you’re condemned to an eternity of damnation. Doesn’t seem like much of a choice to me. What about those who have not been told about this deal? Seems unfair to damn them just because they weren’t made aware. > > If you really want me to reconsider, then maybe you could ask your god to send me some sort of sign that he exists. I’m open to accepting him, but from where I’m sitting I’m not seeing much evidence of his existence (and no, the bible doesn’t count). > Asking me to accept such a fundamental and life changing belief in the face of (let’s face it) zero evidence is a bit much to ask, really. So you want to live your life the way YOU want to and still enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Do you think God should just be a nice guy and let anyone in even though they deny Him? Make no mistake God is loving, but there IS a wrath. Indeed, there are those who have never heard the Gospel of Christ. I am not a Biblical scholar so I cannot offhand quote a scripture which addresses this, but there is an “age of accountability” as it were, regarding who God holds accountable. This is not an age in years, more so a mental age where an individual is able to understand the Gospel. My personal belief is this extends to those who have never heard the Gospel and also extends to the mentally disabled. So you want a sign? God does not do parlor tricks. We are told to accept by faith. I mentioned this earlier. Accepting by faith is just that. Accepting despite some sort of “proof”. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/45 "2015-05-26T19:44:36Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Technically, the story of Adam and Eve is primarily a metaphor about humans “discovering” moral code (or more accurately, developing the basis of morality, condensed from centuries into an evening). No part of Genesis, on up to Exodus 20, was ever meant to be taken literally, only ignoramuses, charlatans and SDAs preach that doctrine. I believe the story of Adam and Eve is indeed a literal truth as I do the Genesis account of creation. The Bible does contain allegories and hyperboles but I do not believe the Adan and Eve story is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/46 "2015-05-26T20:20:45Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > So you want to live your life the way YOU want to and still enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Do you think God should just be a nice guy and let anyone in even though they deny Him? “Stop telling god what to do!” -Niels Bohr > [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Make no mistake God is loving, but there IS a wrath. Every single time I encounter this sentiment it is coming from ideologies and faiths that only do want to hurt others that are not like them. … > [@Oddball\_92](#): > > So you want a sign? God does not do parlor tricks. We are told to accept by faith. I mentioned this earlier. Accepting by faith is just that. Accepting despite some sort of “proof”. Thomas still remained an Apostle even after he requested one. Really, this is really one of the weakest arguments when one considers all the amazing feats that Jesus allegedly realized in person to convince all that he was the real deal. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/47 "2015-05-26T20:29:08Z")
> [@funky\_little\_lee](#): > > . . . I don’t think it matters whether you’re saying “Hail Mary” or “Om” or\*\* “I’m thankful,” \*\*it’s just a tool to focus your mind and help you transcend everyday thoughts and rest in an oasis of positivity for a little while. Nothing wrong with that. We’ve kind of gotten away from comment on prayer, and I’d like to get back to it just a bit. There have been studies that support the idea that feeling gratitude on a regular basis is good for your health. (Underlines and bolding above are mine.) So having a daily habit that encouraged a feeling of gratitude would be a good thing and would be missed if you gave it up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Angry\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@The\_Angry\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Angry_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/48 "2015-05-26T20:40:07Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > So you want to live your life the way YOU want to and still enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Nope. Heaven is your belief, not mine. Why should I have to live my life according to what YOU believe? > [@Oddball\_92](#): > > God is loving, but there IS a wrath. Then that’s not love. Love, to me at least, means accepting the people you love for all their faults and forgiving them when they screw up. Love does not mean condemning someone to an eternity of torment just because they didn’t believe something that someone else told them that you said. > [@Oddball\_92](#): > > So you want a sign? God does not do parlor tricks. Funny that, in the Old Testament he was always pulling all kinds of miracles at the drop of a hat. What caused that change in policy? > [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Accepting by faith is just that. Accepting despite some sort of “proof”. Whenever I hear this trotted out, I always think of that scene in The Terminator where Sarah is being interviewed by the police & psychiatrist: > [@](#): > > Dr. Silberman: [He shuts off the VCR screen on which the police and Sarah have been watching the interview] This is great stuff. I could make a career out of this guy! You see how clever his part is? How it doesn’t require a shred of proof? Most paranoid delusions are intricate, but this is brilliant! Anyway, we’re getting away from the OP somewhat here, so that’s my final comment in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/49 "2015-05-26T20:48:41Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > I believe the story of Adam and Eve is indeed a literal truth as I do the Genesis account of creation. The Bible does contain allegories and hyperboles but I do not believe the Adan and Eve story is one of them. Really? Which of the two tales is the true one? The one where they were created at the same time or the one where Eve comes from the rib? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/50 "2015-05-26T20:52:28Z")
Even if religions are wrong, that does not exclude that they may have some beneficial practices. Come to peace with what you are praying to and define it but make it flexible. If you are tending towards atheism look towards things that agree with that. Perhaps getting in touch with your subconscious, perhaps trying to achieve a certain amount of objectivity or clarification on a issue. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/51 "2015-05-26T22:38:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Really? Which of the two tales is the true one? The one where they were created at the same time or the one where Eve comes from the rib? They were not created at the same time. Adam came first, then Eve. And Yes, Eve was created by God from Adam’s rib. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/52 "2015-05-26T22:48:16Z")
[quote=“The\_Angry\_Badger, post:48, topic:720583”] Nope. Heaven is your belief, not mine. Why should I have to live my life according to what YOU believe? > [@](#): > > You don’t. It’s not about me. It’s about what God said. > > > [@](#): > > > > Then that’s not love. Love, to me at least, means accepting the people you love for all their faults and forgiving them when they screw up. Love does not mean condemning someone to an eternity of torment just because they didn’t believe something that someone else told them that you said. > > God will forgive you, but you have to acknowledge (to Him) that you are a sinner and then repent. > > > [@](#): > > > > Funny that, in the Old Testament he was always pulling all kinds of miracles at the drop of a hat. What caused that change in policy? > > The Bible. They did not have the Bible back then. > > > [@](#): > > > > Whenever I hear this trotted out, I always think of that scene in The Terminator where Sarah is being interviewed by the police & psychiatrist > > : > > I wouldn’t know about the terminator. > > > [@](#): > > > > Anyway, we’re getting away from the OP somewhat here, so that’s my final comment in this thread > > . ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/53 "2015-05-26T22:49:52Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > We’ve kind of gotten away from comment on prayer, You’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/54 "2015-05-26T23:11:27Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > They were not created at the same time. Adam came first, then Eve. And Yes, Eve was created by God from Adam’s rib. Or equally translated as ‘side’ which could mean half. So one combined being divided equally into a male being and a female being. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/55 "2015-05-26T23:19:12Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > They were not created at the same time. Adam came first, then Eve. And Yes, Eve was created by God from Adam’s rib. Genesis 1:27-28: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." [http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html](http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html) > [@](#): > > In the first creation story, the first man and woman were created simultaneously. > > In the second account, the man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man’s rib. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/56 "2015-05-27T00:06:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Genesis 1:27-28: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. > > And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Read chapter two. The creation of Adam and Eve takes place on the 8th day. What you quoted took place on the 6th day. Those first two humans were never named or put into the garden. I suspect their children provided the wives for Cain and Seth, et al. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/57 "2015-05-27T00:54:44Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Read chapter two. The creation of Adam and Eve takes place on the 8th day. What you quoted took place on the 6th day. Those first two humans were never named or put into the garden. I suspect their children provided the wives for Cain and Seth, et al. That actually raises more questions, for starters it would mean that indeed the majority of humans never had the original sin then. That or your point here is a whoosh. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/58 "2015-05-27T01:18:01Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > If the god is not Jesus, then you too have wagered your eternity. If Jesus was here to save all men, why did he tell the gentile woman who asked him to heal her child that he came ONLY for The Lost Sheep Of Israel ? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/59 "2015-05-27T01:20:25Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > As a believer, I have wagered nothing. > Most atheists I have talked to believe that when you die there is emptiness, nothing, blackness, end of existence, game over. Now if they are right and I have lived my life as a believer, then what have I lost?? It will simply be game over for me as well. > > Now as a Christian, I believe that unless someone is saved, (and that only occurs by accepting Jesus (who is God’s son)), you will spend an eternity in hell, while those who are saved will spend an eternity in Heaven. So what has a non-believer lost? Eternal life. > > By the way, being an “agnostic” is no different than being an atheist when it comes to whether someone is saved or not. According to the Psalmist 81 or 82(depending on which version you read) , the psalmist says"I said you are gods and sons of the most high" ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583/60 "2015-05-27T01:21:43Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > As a believer, I have wagered nothing. > Most atheists I have talked to believe that when you die there is emptiness, nothing, blackness, end of existence, game over. Now if they are right and I have lived my life as a believer, then what have I lost?? It will simply be game over for me as well. > > Now as a Christian, I believe that unless someone is saved, (and that only occurs by accepting Jesus (who is God’s son)), you will spend an eternity in hell, while those who are saved will spend an eternity in Heaven. So what has a non-believer lost? Eternal life. > > By the way, being an “agnostic” is no different than being an atheist when it comes to whether someone is saved or not. According to the Psalmist 81 or 82(depending on which version you read) , the psalmist says"I said you are gods and sons of the most high" Jesus backs this up in John 10 when accused of blasphemy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/praying-if-you-are-agnostic/720583.md?page=4)