# Pre-1600s, people didn't know that air was a thing/existed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 18, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010 "2015-02-18T15:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010/21 "2015-02-19T18:14:50Z")
> [@JimSC](#): > > Can someone explain how the vacuum pump was conceived, designed, and built before air was known to be a tangible substance? . . . Ancient astronauts maybe? šŸ˜ƒ The realization that air was a material substance was not a sudden event. Experiments like that led to the understanding of air as a gas. The problem here isnā€™t that people didnā€™t know that air existed, the problem was that air seemed to be distinctly different from all other substances known at the time and itā€™s behavior couldnā€™t be well explained with the established knowledge of the time. ---
**Author:** ![JimSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@JimSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimSC)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010/22 "2015-02-19T19:09:08Z")
My previous post was unclear as to the point I was trying to make. My bad. Iā€™ll try again. The BBC article that is cited in the OP implies that the concept of a vacuum was unknown prior to 1600. > [@Hermitian](#): > > In reading [this](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-02b44e78-2da1-4a27-bcc5-dd0de5f38b20) interesting article on BBC, it states: > [INDENT] > \*"The first thing that had to happen seems almost comical to us today. We had to discover that air was actually made of something, that it wasnā€™t just empty space between objects. **In the 1600s, amateur scientists discovered a bizarre phenomenon - the vacuum**. . . Aristotle said, ā€œNature abhors a vacuum.ā€ So the concept was being discussed at least 2000 years earlier. In the first century, Heron of Alexandria invented some interesting toys; some of which showed that he had at least some understanding that air is a fluid. Iā€™m sure earlier humans did have some of the misconceptions discussed in this thread. So I guess my point is the trivial assertion that the understanding came much earlier than 1600. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010/23 "2015-02-20T00:37:19Z")
First of all, Iā€™ll say as a disclaimer that I donā€™t read Old English, but I found Thomas Wrightā€™s ā€œPopular Treatises on Sciences Written in the Middle Agesā€, in which he quotes a tenth century tract on Astronomy, which says, in part. > [@](#): > > Air is a very thin corporeal element; it goes over the whole world, and extends upward almost to the moon; in it fly fowls as fishes swim in the water. Not one of them could fly if not for the air which bears them up, and no man or cattle has any breathing except by means of the air. The breath that we blow out and draw in is not our soul, but it is the air in which we live in this mortal life; as fishes die when they are out of the water, so also every earthly body dies if it is deprived of air. It then goes on to talk about the wind. The text claims to be based on a text by the Venerable Bede, so I decided to check what he said about the air. Iā€™m not going to quote it, but basically, he said, 1. All living things breathe it 2. It is lighter than water but heavier than fire 3. It sustains the flight of birds 4. It bears up the clouds, which are made of water suspended in it 5. The demons cast out of heaven make their abode there 6. Itā€™s more pure the further it is from the earth and the closer to heaven 7. The lower part contains fire, hail, snow, ice, and winds 8. Wind is air stirred up and agitated, as can be seen by the example of a small fan 9 Air trapped within the earth causes earthquakes as it tries to escape 9. Air can cause pestilence and disease ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010/24 "2015-02-20T02:56:32Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > ā€¦ The text claims to be based on a text by the Venerable Bede, so I decided to check what he said about the air. Iā€™m not going to quote it, but basically, he said, > > 1. All living things breathe it > 2. It is lighter than water but heavier than fire > 3. It sustains the flight of birds > 4. It bears up the clouds, which are made of water suspended in it > 5. The demons cast out of heaven make their abode there > 6. Itā€™s more pure the further it is from the earth and the closer to heaven > 7. The lower part contains fire, hail, snow, ice, and winds > 8. Wind is air stirred up and agitated, as can be seen by the example of a small fan > 9 Air trapped within the earth causes earthquakes as it tries to escape > 9. Air can cause pestilence and disease 7 out of 10 ainā€™t bad for 1400 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010/25 "2015-02-20T03:26:17Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > 7 out of 10 ainā€™t bad for 1400 years ago. I count 4 out of ten. 3 if we demand unambiguously correct. 1. Fish donā€™t breathe air, for example. 2. Air isnā€™t less dense than fire. Hot air is lighter than cold air, but it air isnā€™t heavier than fire no matter how you spin it. 5.There are no demons on the air. 3. Air at altitude isnā€™t any more pure. Air further from sources of pollution are more pure, but air high above a dirty city will be less ā€œpureā€ than air at ground level in the middle of a forest. 4. How exactly air ā€œcontains fireā€ is ambiguous. 5. Iā€™m not a geologist, but Iā€™m fairly sure that earthquakes are not the earth farting. 6. Air can not cause pestilence or disease. Pasteur, Snow et. al. ruled that out long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010/26 "2015-02-20T03:30:51Z")
What do you figure for the density of fire? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010/27 "2015-02-20T03:37:58Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What do you figure for the density of fire? Fire is a reaction involving fuel. Its density is slightly less than that of the fuel. I guess a hydrogen fire is less dense than air, but it is unlikely that hydrogen fires were what a dark ages author was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010/28 "2015-02-20T11:53:03Z")
I think when he says air ā€œcontains fireā€, heā€™s talking about lightning, or maybe the sun. And his argument that fire is less dense than air is because fire goes up. Flame points upward, and the smoke from flame rises. Therefore, it must be less dense than air. QED [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-1600s-people-didnt-know-that-air-was-a-thing-existed/713010.md?page=1)