# Pre-Emptive Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592 "2005-12-08T00:39:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/61 "2005-12-08T15:51:05Z")
> [@TYM](#): > > I must say, though, that the picture in my morning paper of the passengers filing off with their hands in the air showed a bit of overexuberance on the part of the marshalls/cops. Nah. I’m sure that the air marshals didn’t just make up this practice on the spot. I bet they have procedures in place for such incidents and were just following them. It does seem rather silly, but I can see why setting up such a process for clearing off the plane makes sense after such an incident. Better to err on the side of caution. > [@lieu](#): > > Yes, I’m of a mind they acted properly and would strongly suspect they’ll go over all aspects of this case and, if necessary, **make whatever modifications they deem proper to their protocol to address similar incidents in the future.** Bolding mine. This is what really worries me. If they acted properly, then why do we need to modify any protocol or procedures? I don’t want air marshals of the future to be so concerned with complicated protocols that they fail to act quickly and decisively. (😃 “Aire Marshals of the Future!” Band name, or Paul Verhoeven movie.) Of course there needs to be an investigation. A man was shot to death. Just like anytime a cop shoots somebody there should be some checks in place to make sure that it was justified. But, unless something completely new and unforseen comes up in it I don’t see why anything would need to be changed. There certainly isn’t any indication that this is the case. If a crazy man runs out on the highway and gets run over by a truck to we discuss making changes to the highway system or to how we build trucks? No. You feel sorry for the person and shrug and move on. > [@](#): > > I hope all travellers in need of meds take this to heart. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/62 "2005-12-08T16:03:04Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What are you on about? The dude, at least according to the news, said he had a bomb. What, exactly, would you be thinking the guy’s reaching for when the coppers tell him “don’t touch anything” and he reaches into the bag? > > “Righty talking points?” Sheesh, what a moron you’ve become. **lno** Got it right. What I am talking about is that here we have an OP that seems to be arguing against some mythical position that no one is actually taking. The tone of the OP seems to also be supposing that these imaginary people taking this theoretical position are Filthy Liberal Law and Order Hating America Hating Fuckers™. In other words, we have someone (or a group of people) that are so caught up in gearing up to disagree with what their loyal opposition will say, that they are imagining things that are not there. The sad thing is that this feels to me like the birth of an urban legend, or a Righty talking point. At the risk of falling into the trap of the OP’s way of thinking, _I_ have no trouble imagining folks down the road stating **as if it were a fact** that the Filthy Liberals™ “lambasted” the poor cop who was doing his job and trying to protect others while keeping himself reasonably safe in the process. So why are people doing this? Haven’t we had enough yet? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/63 "2005-12-08T16:05:15Z")
I am undecided until I have more information. Who heard the claim that there was a bomb in the bag? Any passengers or crew, other than the sky marshal? ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/64 "2005-12-08T16:10:36Z")
I was about to refute **Debaser’s** assertion that no investigation should happen. > [@Debaser](#): > > I’m shocked that nobody has yet come in here to denounce the air marshal, demand and investigation, and somehow tie this all back to GWBush. But it looks like **Debaser** beat me to it… > [@](#): > > Of course there needs to be an investigation. A man was shot to death. Just like anytime a cop shoots somebody there should be some checks in place to make sure that it was justified. So we agree. 😃 I only continue with the post to ensure this point is clear: Calling for an investigation is not lambasting nor in any way a denunciation of the AM’s actions. If it is part of the Air Marshall’s training (as I’m sure it is) that an investigation will take place with _every_ shooting, the “threat” of investigation shouldn’t dull the AM’s decisiveness. The investigation is necessary, as **Debaser** suggests, as a check/balance to the awesome power granted to the AM. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/65 "2005-12-08T16:14:38Z")
The guy claimed to have a bomb. OK, it may be that this claim was provoked by some prevailing mental ilness, but it sounds like the authorities acted in the only way possible here. However, I used to work in airports, so the concept of never uttering the word ‘bomb’ is pavlovian in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/66 "2005-12-08T16:15:02Z")
Wow, a 65 posts pitting where we all basically agree and we’re just nitpicking or confirming. This is a strange Pitting. **Fear Itself** : On CNN last night, one of the passanger said he yelled I have a bomb. So hopefully that reassures you a little until the full report comes out. Jim ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/67 "2005-12-08T16:25:57Z")
From what I’ve heard, there were multiple witnesses who said he claimed to have a bomb. He did not stop when ordered to do so by law enforcement. I’m as skeptical of law enforcement as your next America-hating liberal, but in this case, I think I would have done pretty much the same thing had I been the one with the gun. Barring further information, I’m going to call this one an unfortunate accident. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/68 "2005-12-08T16:38:25Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > On CNN last night, one of the passanger said he yelled I have a bomb. > [@vibrotronica](#): > > From what I’ve heard, there were multiple witnesses who said he claimed to have a bomb. I have been unable to find any online news reports that can confirm this. Not saying its not true, just that it is difficult to corroborate until the investigation is complete. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/69 "2005-12-08T16:56:10Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I have been unable to find any online news reports that can confirm this. Not saying its not true, just that it is difficult to corroborate until the investigation is complete. Nothing about a bomb except from the air marshals so we will all need to wait: But… From [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/08/ap/national/mainD8EC3O401.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/08/ap/national/mainD8EC3O401.shtml) > [@](#): > > Argote said Alpizar got up from his seat and ran toward the plane’s door, with his wife yelling in Spanish. > > “Officers told him to stop and he said no,” the teen said. “He was running like a crazy man.” From many news stories: > [@](#): > > Before he ran off the plane he “uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb,” said James E. Bauer, agent in charge of the Federal Air Marshal Service field office in Miami. So we wait. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/70 "2005-12-08T17:21:26Z")
What a ridiculous OP. Pre-emptive pitting…BAH! ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/71 "2005-12-08T17:29:13Z")
[Here is the latest CNN story](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/08/airplane.gunshot/index.html). No civilians are quoted as saying they heard him say he had a bomb. > [@CNN](#): > > Alpizar ran off the plane clutching a bag, chased by a man in a Hawaiian shirt, passenger Mike Beshears told CNN. That man turned out to be one of the two air marshals. > > Beshears said he did not hear Alpizar say anything. “He just was in a hurry and exited the plane,” he said. > > Alpizar’s wife also followed him part of the way down the aisle, then returned to her seat saying, her husband was sick and she needed to get his bags, Beshears said. > > "After she passed back toward her seat … a number of shots rang out – at least five, up to six, shots rang out. And I saw the flight attendants returning, running down first class toward coach, and we were all told, ‘Get down, get down.’ > > “The gentleman’s wife had made it back up,” Beshears recalled. “And about the time she got to the row in which we were crouched, the flight attendant – I have to commend her on the way she handled the situation – she actually intercepted the lady and took her down in the aisle with myself and a guy.” So, data points: No independant witnesses have said first-hand that they heard him say he had a bomb. One witness on the plane saying he didn’t say anything. But still, by all accounts, his actions up until he left the plane were suspicious. If I did the same thing, I would expect to be detained and questioned by air marshalls. The question is, what happened on the jet bridge? Were there any independant witnessess who saw what happened outside the plane? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/72 "2005-12-08T17:34:10Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > When i heard the story on the radio this evening, i turned to my wife and said, “Well, if that’s really how it went down, then the marshall can hardly be blamed for shooting the guy.” What I said to hubby was “This sounds like suicide-by-law-enforcement”. The manifestation of his mental illness – getting on a plane and saying he has a bomb – it’s almost too pat. Why not say “I’m Superman and I’m going to burn a hole in the plane with my x-ray vision!” **That’s** crazy. Bomb on a plane is something you say to incite a reaction. It just doesn’t sound “crazy” to fake a bomb on a plane. It sounds like something else, but I don’t know what the motivation would be. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/73 "2005-12-08T17:45:51Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > What I said to hubby was “This sounds like suicide-by-law-enforcement”. > > The manifestation of his mental illness – getting on a plane and saying he has a bomb – it’s almost too pat. Why not say “I’m Superman and I’m going to burn a hole in the plane with my x-ray vision!” **That’s** crazy. You got that right. Superman uses heat vision to burn holes in things. X-ray vision is just for seeing through stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/74 "2005-12-08T18:34:45Z")
It is sad but I think it is now a fact of life that anyone claming to be carrying a bomb without obvious signs that this is not true will be shot. Many people with mental illness die from suicide or accident, this is one such tragic case. I also feel sad for the Air Martial who has to live with the fact that he/she took a life, even though it was justified within his/her jobs requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/75 "2005-12-08T18:36:24Z")
> [@vibrotronica's CNN link](#): > > Alpizar ran off the plane clutching a bag, chased by a man in a Hawaiian shirt, passenger Mike Beshears told CNN. That man turned out to be one of the two air marshals. Well, one thing is for sure. The trusty disguise of the air marshals, the Hawaiian shirt, is out in the open now. The only question that remains is how many lives CNN has jeopardized by releasing this information. :smack: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/76 "2005-12-08T19:21:06Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Two words, Amadou Diallo Not to get off topic, but the police acted in the correct manner in the Amadou Diallo killing. They told him to stop, put his hands in the air, instead he reached into his jacket. Do I think he knew he was going to get shot? No, I don’t. I think he was confused, and didn’t understand what to do because he was a foreigner. It was tragic, and I can’t fault him. But nor can I fault the police officers who were following standard operating procedure. When you tell someone to show their hands and they reach into their jacket, you don’t give them a chance to draw on you. The situation was exacerbated because one of the police officers fell down the stairs they were standing on, his companions though he had been shot and in the heat of the moment panicked and unloaded just about every bullet they had into Amadou. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/77 "2005-12-08T21:44:57Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > I disagree. Not to turn this into debate, but I don’t think making a reasonable determination that a weapon is, in fact, present is asking too much prior to the usage of deadly force. Again, however, it is not possible from the article to determine if this is actually what occurred. The marshall very well may _have_ observed the man to be retrieving what he reasonably believed was a weapon. What happens if the bag contains a bomb and the detonator is just button inside the bag? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/78 "2005-12-08T21:46:09Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > What happens if the bag contains a bomb and the detonator is just button inside the bag? that should be “just a button”. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/79 "2005-12-08T22:13:45Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Not to get off topic, but the police acted in the correct manner in the Amadou Diallo killing. > > They told him to stop, put his hands in the air, instead he reached into his jacket. > > Do I think he knew he was going to get shot? No, I don’t. I think he was confused, and didn’t understand what to do because he was a foreigner. It was tragic, and I can’t fault him. But nor can I fault the police officers who were following standard operating procedure. When you tell someone to show their hands and they reach into their jacket, you don’t give them a chance to draw on you. > > The situation was exacerbated because one of the police officers fell down the stairs they were standing on, his companions though he had been shot and in the heat of the moment panicked and unloaded just about every bullet they had into Amadou. What level of brutality or incompetence—or combination of the two—would it take for you to fault the police on anything? I’m guessing that if you had a picture that looked something like [this](http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/Vietimages/VCadams.jpg), you might _almost_ be willing to admit that the police officer _might_ have acted with less-then-perfect discretion and valor. I hear that some police departments have openings for pathetic shills like you in the PR department, if you’re looking for work. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592/80 "2005-12-08T22:22:41Z")
There’s many times when I would criticise police use of force. 1. Excessive beating when restraining a struggling suspect 2. Shooting when there is no threat to the officer (fleeing suspect, suspect attempting to surrender etc.) When the police tell a guy to put his hands up, and instead he reaches into his jacket (a popular place to put a gun) what are they supposed to do? Wait until he actually draws on them to shoot? Have you ever been in a situation where it’s shoot or be killed? I have, and I can tell you that you don’t have time to weigh the moral issues or decide if there’s some other way to deal with the situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pre-emptive-pitting/334592.md?page=5)